Up weighting - air anyone ? what did you have and whats the best bang for buck ?

[roadwarrior]

much reduced roll when going around corners

you will notice less movement as the trucks try to suck you in as you pass.

 

[Minxy]

so.. the near useless DVLA finally sent back my revised log book and guess what ... they buggered it up.. how unusual, cheaper tax - ta.. so now taxed as 3850, but guess what....... MPM still says 3500.. cant make it up... which means i could still get fined for being over weight according to the log book - numptys ...

i have just spoken to the dvla and they have told me that they dont alter the mpm unless told to by the DVSA, WHAT ??? they said sent them proof - what ??

I told them about this years ago, actually spoke to one of the managers on the phone who was going to refer it to those responsible for the 'to do' info that is supplied to DVLA staff on what to do on the V5C, obviously it never got changed!

All you can do is write to them with a concise letter of little words so they understand and get them to change it ... good luck!

 

[Fraggle 22]

im coming round to the fact my apache 634 is rubbish for payload, so now i have to sort it and make it useable, currently 3500 and need it 3850 at least what have you done and how much did it cost ? i have just looked at the bump stops on an almost empty van and they are close - not happy at all. advice please.

Only had it a few days so not had the log book back yet, so as im looking for ideas for air i find i need to know what chassis i have, im pretty sure its not an alko chassis.

I changed my motorhome in January to Autotrail Apache 634. We love the rear lounge aspect and the MH in general. We stupidly didn't check the payload. I am over 70 with B1 licence so started the upload procedure in July. If you are over 70 you need to follow this procedure. 1. Book a medical inused D4Drivers. 2. Complete form D2/D4 which you need to take to the medical. 3. Send forms to DVLA after the medical and expect 4 wk wait. 4. Expect to get your C1 licence after that date. 5. I had air suspension fitted by Dave Newell of Telford at £550. You can't do it yourself as you need a signed certificate of conformity. 6. Contact SVTech and send them certificate and details of V5 they will complete the upload to 3850kg and return docs and new plate within about 10 days. New plating label should be fitted to near side door frame. 7. Send V5, certificate of insurance, documents from SVTech.to DVLA. We were charged approx £300 for this service by SVTech. After about 6 weeks you will get a new V5 and a refund for road tax fro DVLA. All this is quite a faff but our payload is now 660kg which is more than adequate. The ride quality and cornering will amaze you.

 

[roadwarrior]

i am of the opinion that many motorhomers will experience different end results vis a vis air bags / tyres /tyre pressures weight of vehicle, distributed load ect , my previous bolero was uprated with bigger springs to 3850 but the bolero is a much lighter vehicle to start with than my current apache which allowed me to run soft for a nicer ride. I am sure rolling around could be reduced by more air in tyres at the cost of a comfier ride. As i prefer a soft ride for my old bones im also running the air bags around 1.5 bar= 20 psi, as im finding i go over more bumps and level crossings than a need for leaning into the corners I found more air in the bags didnt help with that, although might help again with body roll, and as we all want differant things its very much to our own tastes.
In summery as i said, my previous van had uprated springs and cost about 150 fitted, job done and as a comparison between uprated rear springs and supplementary airbags (dunlop in my case ) I would say maybe air is better for passing trucks but the cost differential is huge, and as a person who has had a bag go (albeit on a bmw) you would find it not nice as you now dont have an absorber/ bump stop.

 

[roadwarrior]

yes fraggle, we like our 634 lounge as well, the jury is out on sleeping separately or making the bed up, we finally decided on making the bed up as the wife prefers it and is quite happy to make it up and put it away again after, so .. yes, our second autotrail and we like it aside from being a heavy old sod with a silly small fuel tank and twice the size of fresh water.. so its a case of filling up every day as we drive, and no such worries with fresh water i suppose,

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[Langtoftlad]

All you can do is write to them with a concise letter of little words so they understand and get them to change it

Multiple times - works eventually.

 

[roadwarrior]

Lez, you don't say what van conversion you have but I'm willing to bet the weight difference between a van and even a small Motorhome is huge.
Autotrail says my mass in running order is 3300, so maybe a beer and a mars bar and I'm done might need to leave the wife behind.

 

[roadwarrior]

this is turning into a blog
so, like everybody we cant go out, so my beloved and now uprated MH sits on ramps waiting to be a allowed to move, the wife and I have decided we are gonna go SOMEWHERE after the dec 2 lockdown, anyway, here is the thing, you will recall i said i settled on 1.5 bar for the air bags, well i went to the van yesterday to start the engine up and i was shocked to see both bags down to 0.5 bar - where did my air go ?? is this normal ?? a bar of pressure lost in a month ?? this is BOTH bags so unless both were fitted badly its not a leak as each has its own valve on the dash, it only took a couple of mins each side to reinflate, but surely this isnt normal ?

 

[Landy Andy]

No. Not normal for mine. There is a slight drop as temperatures drop, but nothing else.
As both have dropped I would start checks at switch/gauges to see if leak can be found.

 

[roadwarrior]

thanks Andy, i thought not.

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[Langtoftlad]

I have a slight leak on one side, presumably from a pipe connection somewhere, but so slight as nothing to fret about

 

[roadwarrior]

I have a slight leak on one side, presumably from a pipe connection somewhere, but so slight as nothing to fret about

can you put some numbers to your slight leak ? i have lost a bar each side in a month

 

[Langtoftlad]

can you put some numbers to your slight leak ? i have lost a bar each side in a month

Sorry, no not really.
Just when I check, occasionally, one side is lower (measurable but not huge) than the other.

 

[roadwarrior]

I am giddy with excitement , i have done the impossible - took 2 months of course - but what else during a lockdown. Encouraged by others that did it - i got the log book changed to reflect the Upweighting properly on the log book - whooo hoooo ! thank you peeps.

https://gyazo.com/390ad5220e4b4a4bfac72c73fa7d4977

 

[Hoovie]

Roadwarrior has posted on this thread a few times about uprated springs vs read airbag assist ... and I have highlighted some comments below as examples ...

yes but what animal....
carthorse springs are on heavy vehicles for its superior load spacing capabilities, like supporting an overhang and literally spreading the load, im sure the air bags help but with differant characteristics, having been one of millions who had a mini and been bounced around what at the time what i used to call hydrospastic suspension, i just ask the question is it actually better ? Im sure the combination of the two is better, im just curious

i suggested the same thing here myself and was met with a barrage of pro air bag fans who all told me airbags were better in every way upto, (but not in writing) that it would also improve my sex life and i could throw away my penis enlarger... such was the enthusiasm... i have done so now and shortly i will be 3850 and a happy bunny for quite a few hundred quid,, and i will be very honest and say im struggling to tell much difference, and frankly im not sure i would be able to discern between a leaf spring upgrade and this airbag and leaf combination, although im noticing better stability whilst passing trucks on motorways. I did ask here if anybody had ever had both kinds of upgrade and could therefore offer a comparison but seems nobody had - until me.

I have now experienced both - a simple rear spring upgrade on a bolero - and now a dunlop airbag on this Apache i have just bought.
My conclusion is.. aside from a better behaviour for passing trucks i can feel no difference from a simple spring upgrade ( which cost 150 quid at the time + 50 quid to fit it ) and the much more expensive and complex airbag assist which i now have. I also run my tyres soft, 65 front 70 rear which also removes the bone shaker attributes of a van at 80 psi and will contribute to a softer more comfortable ride generally. I have settled on 1.5 bar on the airbags having tried 2.5 and found myself back on the boneshaker trail, again too harsh for no benefits.

I thought I would reply as my Autotrail is fitted (before my ownership) with VHD (Very Heavy Duty) Springs. Instead of the light single spring, or the uprated double Heavy Duty spring that is specified often, I have aftermarket triple springs.

I have seen comments on here about people running their vans with springs that are effectively flat due to the loading (sounds like the spring is either knackered or very underspecified to me?) so they added Air Assist (I think it is 'assist' it is meant to do - not 'replace'??). In my van, when it is fully loaded and at the limit, the springs are still very much sprung and the 'bump stops' are nowhere close to touching base.

I fitted (VB) Air Assist in order to get a uprate to 3850 (similar to the air bag info, the VHD springs don't warrant an automatic increase in weight carrying without engineering input so couldn't get a weight uprate due to the springs themselves). Usually the Air Bags as they inflate will raise the van and take on the weight? With the VHD springs, the Air Bags only start to visibly take effect when they are pumped up to a fairly high level and become pretty stiff. At lower pressures they would/should I guess help with cushioning maybe?
But to answer the bits above I highlighted in Red, I have also been unable to spot any driving benefit of adding the Air Assist. I am not saying Air Bags are not a benefit to those who have had it fitted, but there seems to be little benefit to adding in conjunction to an uprated spring set. One possible benefit is ability to raise the rear for levelling purposes and ferry ramps I suppose?
Which is better? As I have not had Air Assist without the uprated springs also, I don't know, but Air Bags are certainly a more complex and expensive solution and one which can be more problematical (air pressure losses which can be a nightmare to track down and pinpoint for one).

I fitted Air Assist for 2 specific reasons:
1) Ability to uprate to 3850Kg
2) The belief that it would improve the handling and ride (I have no previous experience of a Ducato based motorhome so basic assumption was that whatever I had now would be improved, based on all the fans of these systems)

It delivered #1. Without it, I could only uprate to 3700, and with Air to 3850. But the VHD springs are clearly capable of taking as much weight and more than the Air bags could deliver, so it was a paperwork reason in reality.
For #2, I found no evidence. Tried different pressures and nothing made a difference, good or bad. It was like it was not fitted (and yes, it was and was operational, and I could measure the increase in height at higher PSI's (but I do not need an increase in height!))


To illustrate, the gap from tyre to arch with rear axle loaded to 2120Kg and no Air Assist. Don't think I have a tail-dragger?

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[Headrush]

I fitted air assist to the van and uprated to 3850kg.
I found the handling was vastly improved compared to just the leaf springs. Over time it's easy to forget how much difference it made. Perhaps being slightly over weight on the rear already was the reason it felt so much better.
So I can't agree with your assessment. To be legal I had to fit the air bags and they definitely improved the handling.
One thing you didn't class as a benefit in itself was that the air system is adjustable. Something that is impossible with simple spring upgrades. I don't use the air bags for levelling but for travelling, it's handy to be able to increase or decrease pressure as the situation demands.
One area I can't really comment on is the before and after of replacing the rear tyres as part of the uprating process. I think the tyres are as important as the suspension to the feel of the vehicle on the road.

 

[Hoovie]

I fitted air assist to the van and uprated to 3850kg.
I found the handling was vastly improved compared to just the leaf springs. Over time it's easy to forget how much difference it made. Perhaps being slightly over weight on the rear already was the reason it felt so much better.
So I can't agree with your assessment. To be legal I had to fit the air bags and they definitely improved the handling.
One thing you didn't class as a benefit in itself was that the air system is adjustable. Something that is impossible with simple spring upgrades. I don't use the air bags for levelling but for travelling, it's handy to be able to increase or decrease pressure as the situation demands.
One area I can't really comment on is the before and after of replacing the rear tyres as part of the uprating process. I think the tyres are as important as the suspension to the feel of the vehicle on the road.

You can't agree or disagree with my assessment as you don't have uprated springs as well as air assist so have no basis to do so.

comment, yes; agree or disagree, no.

 

[Pjm99]

This makes for interesting reading for me as I've been quite surprised how harsh the ride is on our brand new A class compared to our old sprinter conversion. I don't need extra payload but would be very interested if air suspension gives a substantially better ride on less than perfect roads, time for some research...

 

[peterc10]

This makes for interesting reading for me as I've been quite surprised how harsh the ride is on our brand new A class compared to our old sprinter conversion. I don't need extra payload but would be very interested if air suspension gives a substantially better ride on less than perfect roads, time for some research...

Start with the easy one. What tyre pressures are you running on and what make of tyre?

 

[Pjm99]

Conti camper tyres (always used commercial vehicle tyres on previous van, this is the first time using camper specific ones) 65 psi front 75 rear.

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[Guigsy]

Conti camper tyres (always used commercial vehicle tyres on previous van, this is the first time using camper specific ones) 65 psi front 75 rear.

I got an a-class a couple of months ago. It was on Michelin Agilis Campers when I bought it. I was shocked at how bad the ride was. The recommended pressures were 80psi all round. I've swapped to Continental VanContact 4Seasons. The reason I went for Continental van tyres is they provide recommended tyre pressures in a handbook. I now run 51psi and the ride is much better. On good surfaces, it's now perfectly acceptable. Hit some big road joints or rough tarmac though and it produces quite a bit of noisy body shake, but not the nearly continuously deafening like it was before. Still noisier than my previous Ducato panel van.

 

[peterc10]

Conti camper tyres (always used commercial vehicle tyres on previous van, this is the first time using camper specific ones) 65 psi front 75 rear.

Have you got your motorhome loaded up with what you normally carry and got each axle weighed? If not I recommend that you do so and then contact Continental and they will tell you what tyre pressures you should use for your tyres and axle weights. They will even email the pressure chart for your tyre type and size. Once I did that on my Hymer A class my teeth fillings stopped falling out. ,

 

[Pjm99]

Brilliant I'll do that before throwing money at it, thanks for the advice, sounds like tyre pressure is key.

 

[Headrush]

You can't agree or disagree with my assessment as you don't have uprated springs as well as air assist so have no basis to do so.

comment, yes; agree or disagree, no.

Oh dear. I'm perfectly able to disagree. You were saying air assist didn't make a difference - to you.
I think most people here would not have uprated leaf springs, so from that perspective and mine, I disagree with your assessment.

 

[Guigsy]

My previous van was a 3.3t Ducato and had been 'professionally' converted. When I got it, it was riding on the bump stops/spring assistors all the time. The handling was terrible and the comfort was pretty poor. I fitted semi-air suspension myself. The handling was transformed, it turned much more sharply and passing trucks and driving in gusty conditions was no longer scary. It did improve the comfort too, but it was pretty marginal, except on the big potholes where it helped a lot.

My new van is a pretty stubby 6m and light. But I'm assuming that it's been put on fairly heavy springs at the back because it rides pretty high with a large gap to the bump stops/spring assistors. I'm not that happy with the ride comfort on the new van. But I'm not convinced that semi-air would help that much. I'll probably go full air if my Bitcoins double in value...

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[cookie]

Not a coach built but a camper type fiat.
Uprating was easy as already heavy chassis and 16 inch wheels. So only a paper exercise. Didn't have to but fitted air assist at the back. Difference is amazing sits slightly more nose down so steering feels much better and over bumps no problem. Less wobble at speeds too.

Wish when we'd had our bolero I'd fitted it to that. As that did sag s bit at the back especially after a visit to the wine merchant.

 

[Jamesh]

Oh dear. I'm perfectly able to disagree. You were saying air assist didn't make a difference - to you.
I think most people here would not have uprated leaf springs, so from that perspective and mine, I disagree with your assessment.

You cannot compare a van with heavy duty springs with one without. Air will make little difference to a heavy duty sprung van esp if it's only carrying 3.5t.

Normal springs give a better ride but droop as you approach 3.5t adding air helps sort that and upgrades the axle loading.

Heavier springs mean you can run at higher loads without air.

Cheers James

 

[Headrush]

You cannot compare a van with heavy duty springs with one without. Air will make little difference to a heavy duty sprung van esp if it's only carrying 3.5t.

Normal springs give a better ride but droop as you approach 3.5t adding air helps sort that and upgrades the axle loading.

Heavier springs mean you can run at higher loads without air.

Cheers James

That's fine. The thread is about uprating and air. You need air (and possibly wider tyres) to uprate over the plated spec* as apparently heavier springs don't qualify.
Just trying to keep it relevant to the question.
I was over 3.5 tonnes so I had to uprate. Heavier springs might have done the job but it would still be over axle weight. As a commercial driver I am aware of the risks, both legally and with regards to safety and handling. For me it's not about what it looks like or whether I'll get caught, it's about doing it right.

*yes I know some vans are already down rated to suit the market but that's a separate issue.

 

[Hoovie]

Oh dear. I'm perfectly able to disagree. You were saying air assist didn't make a difference - to you.
I think most people here would not have uprated leaf springs, so from that perspective and mine, I disagree with your assessment.

oh dear ... you just don't get it do you My post said that the air assist made no difference to me essentially because I had uprated springs. so you can comment on your own situation and perspective but not disagree on mine as you have no experience of having the two together.
anyway, not going to argue with you as you clearly are not able to understand different setups can result in different outcomes.

 

[roadwarrior]

my my.. its kicking off...
lets go through a few things here..
i started at the top of my post asking would anybody know the differance between uprated springs and air assist and which was better and had anybody had both to compare the differences it seems nobody had. I have not had uprated AND air, so Hoovie is unique there.
Anyway, there are almost infinite ways of setting up your van. differant tyre widths/differant tyre pressures, differant springs and differant airtbags, and different vans with differant characteristics. So its impossible to state black and white answers, however, i do know for sure tyre pressures have a huge effect on handling and comfort. 80psi is waaay too hard no matter what anybody says. but depending on your vehicle and load i suggest to try 60 psi front and 70 psi rear and experiment - less than those will make your van a wallowing old hector unless you have a light load.
you need tyres that can carry a heavy load AND heavy sidewalls made for motorhomes as although commercial tyres can take the load, they will go oval soon as motorhomes stand still alot way before they wear out.
AIRBAGS. i have tried a few pressures and again no hard and fast rule. but high pressure such as above 30psi will do little except turn it into a boneshaker and brutal over bumps and level crossings ect. and will have the same effect as hard pressured tyres., I have yet to concisely prove springs or air is better as there are no constants., and of course MANY opinions..
Springs. The light standard springs are hopeless on a heavy hector like autotrails and so need something for sure. My Bolero came with uprated springs to plated 3850 and stood up at the rear a lot, and nothing i ever loaded in that van ever even dropped it by an inch, as i say, the Bolero is a light van, the autotrail 634 is anything but, and sat down at the back even when empty. Hence this original post enquiry. I have a feeling this question will run and run.

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