To Tow or to Trailer

[Stumbleweed]

My 2p worth.
I went for a bigger trailer and take my daily driver with us, (currently a BMW 3 series estate).
Trailer is a twin axle Woodford WBT131 - 650kg empty can carry 2100kg.
Nose weight not an issue - van is 5.4t unladen 6.7t chassis. Use the car to manoeuvre the trailer.
My wife has limited mobility so a car is virtually essential

 

[TonyEmm]

Done both, with the same little car (Suzuki Ignis)

Had the A Frame chassis mounts and electrics fitted to the Suzuki. But cognizant of the situation aboard, we also bought a Woodford Lwt 072 trailer.

A Frame
Cost about two grand to fit, and when it worked, it worked well. However, the Suzuki was a semi-automatic gearbox with push button ignition. All I can say is that unless your have key ignition and a manual gearbox, don't go A frame, because you have to release the steering lock to avoid the tyres being scrubbed, and the safest way is by a key ignition. The last time we used it, the ignition came on and we blew a hole in the Suzuki engine block within three miles of leaving home. Three grand and never again.

The legal aspect seems pretty muddy, but is actually very clear. There are two issues that impact each other.

1. The 1968 United Nations Vienna Convention says that as long as a vehicle meets all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration, then wherever it is driven in a country that has ratified the country is, de facto, legal.

Case closed?
No.

2. The UK position is that use of A Frames is not legal. It is actually not illegal, with no formal decision on legality ever being made by the Govt/Legislature. Not illegal is not the same as legal, and this fine distinction means that under the Vienna Convention, the rig is not legal in the home country, and so the local laws apply. In many EU countries, towing with 4 wheels on the ground may only be conducted by authorised or licensed recovery vehicles. However, as you will find everywhere in Yerp, some cops will ignore it, some will pull you over and ask, and some will pull you, fine you and make you decouple. We A-framed in Ireland and the Gardai didn't seem to care, but never risked it on mainland Yerp.

(Note that Ireland, Cyprus, Iceland, Malta and have neither signed nor ratified the convention and Spain has signed but not ratified the Vienna Convention. Also, many countries, including Belgium, Germany and Sweden have clause exemptions.)

Trailer
The Woodford Lwt 072 is one of the shortest and lightest, 2 axle, car trailers around. It has a gross max weight of 1600kilos, with a weight of 400kg, and therefore has a cargo weight of 1200kilo. The Suzuki weighs about 900, so we used to pack the car with a couple of hundred of kilos of kit as well. Always preferred a twin axle for heavy trailers, because if you get a blowout, you will feel the difference and be able to pullover before the trailer starts gouging channels in the road surface, or flipping.

The Woodford worked well for us and we toured Yerp with no difficulties. We used a static G3 Residence awning and used the car as a runabout. My only grief was the ramps. They are heavy, unwieldy, noisy to use and slippery in the wet.

Looked at a tilt trailer, but couldn't find a twin axle small/light enough.

Other Options
Looked at towing spectacles and dollies, but these also seem incompatible with many European countries' laws.

Verdict on trailer v a frame?
For us, neither. Can't see the point of an A frame again, unless HM Govt shifts its arse and makes an affirmative decision on its legality. Don't regret the Woodford but we have now got a small aluminium Anssems hard top trailer and are getting a driveaway awning. Sold the car trailer and now use the moho as the runabout.

Some excellent info there, with one exception!

The Vienna Convention on Road Traffic 1968. Doesn’t apply to trailers!

article 3, para 2 (b). The provisions of this paragraph do not impose any obligations on the Contracting Parties with respect to the rules in force in their territories concerning the technical requirements to be satisfied by power-driven vehicles, which are not motor vehicles within the meaning ofthis convention.

As the DfT consider an a-frame towed car a trailer, it no longer follows the VC’s rules for motor vehicles while ever the A-frame is attached.

if the Guardia Civil choose to nick you for towing one motorised vehicle with another, they are completely within their rights!

 

[Vennwood]

Excellent summary DDJC - many thanks

 

[pandas]

Done both, with the same little car (Suzuki Ignis)

Had the A Frame chassis mounts and electrics fitted to the Suzuki. But cognizant of the situation aboard, we also bought a Woodford Lwt 072 trailer.

A Frame
Cost about two grand to fit, and when it worked, it worked well. However, the Suzuki was a semi-automatic gearbox with push button ignition. All I can say is that unless your have key ignition and a manual gearbox, don't go A frame, because you have to release the steering lock to avoid the tyres being scrubbed, and the safest way is by a key ignition. The last time we used it, the ignition came on and we blew a hole in the Suzuki engine block within three miles of leaving home. Three grand and never again.

The legal aspect seems pretty muddy, but is actually very clear. There are two issues that impact each other.

1. The 1968 United Nations Vienna Convention says that as long as a vehicle meets all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration, then wherever it is driven in a country that has ratified the country is, de facto, legal.

Case closed?
No.

2. The UK position is that use of A Frames is not legal. It is actually not illegal, with no formal decision on legality ever being made by the Govt/Legislature. Not illegal is not the same as legal, and this fine distinction means that under the Vienna Convention, the rig is not legal in the home country, and so the local laws apply. In many EU countries, towing with 4 wheels on the ground may only be conducted by authorised or licensed recovery vehicles. However, as you will find everywhere in Yerp, some cops will ignore it, some will pull you over and ask, and some will pull you, fine you and make you decouple. We A-framed in Ireland and the Gardai didn't seem to care, but never risked it on mainland Yerp.

(Note that Ireland, Cyprus, Iceland, Malta and have neither signed nor ratified the convention and Spain has signed but not ratified the Vienna Convention. Also, many countries, including Belgium, Germany and Sweden have clause exemptions.)

Trailer
The Woodford Lwt 072 is one of the shortest and lightest, 2 axle, car trailers around. It has a gross max weight of 1600kilos, with a weight of 400kg, and therefore has a cargo weight of 1200kilo. The Suzuki weighs about 900, so we used to pack the car with a couple of hundred of kilos of kit as well. Always preferred a twin axle for heavy trailers, because if you get a blowout, you will feel the difference and be able to pullover before the trailer starts gouging channels in the road surface, or flipping.

The Woodford worked well for us and we toured Yerp with no difficulties. We used a static G3 Residence awning and used the car as a runabout. My only grief was the ramps. They are heavy, unwieldy, noisy to use and slippery in the wet.

Looked at a tilt trailer, but couldn't find a twin axle small/light enough.

Other Options
Looked at towing spectacles and dollies, but these also seem incompatible with many European countries' laws.

Verdict on trailer v a frame?
For us, neither. Can't see the point of an A frame again, unless HM Govt shifts its arse and makes an affirmative decision on its legality. Don't regret the Woodford but we have now got a small aluminium Anssems hard top trailer and are getting a driveaway awning. Sold the car trailer and now use the moho as the runabout.

Just covering off the ignition point: go for a blank key where you can release the steering whilst not able to start the engine. Plus if you popped to say fill up fuel and left a ‘proper’ key in the ignition the insurance would not pay out if it were knocked however unlikely - un attended car with the ignition key present.
Best options electric bikes or a car caravan arrangement!

 

[TonyEmm]

My 2p worth.
I went for a bigger trailer and take my daily driver with us, (currently a BMW 3 series estate).
Trailer is a twin axle Woodford WBT131 - 650kg empty can carry 2100kg.
Nose weight not an issue - van is 5.4t unladen 6.7t chassis. Use the car to manoeuvre the trailer.
My wife has limited mobility so a car is virtually essential

Manoeuvring a twin axle trailer can be awkward, especially single handed but there is a trick to it! On firm ground (and assuming it’s not fully loaded) wind the jockey wheel up and get the front axle off the ground, then spin it round like you would a single axle.

My drive is gravel and the jockey wheel digs in so, I lift the jockey wheel right up and I bounce the trailer, front to back axles, pulling it round as I go. My trailer is 2 tonne, I’m 76 and I haven’t got a hernia yet!

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[Carolyn and Kev]

Car on a Trailer.

A Frames are for UK use only,
They are virtually impossible to reverse with
The car needs modification
Cars are not designed to be towed over long distances

Cars on A frames only become a pain to reverse if...They are on an 'Overrun' Braking system fitted in the car ( Similar to that of a caravan) . If they are electronically braked (as is ours) ...they are not a problem. Watching kev perform with the Fiat Abarth we have on a RVi Brake buddy system ....He just Makes it look simple! Never had a problem yet and we have met up with folks in tiny lanes who cannot reverse a car ! Kev just does what he has to and reverses it out of harm's way

Carolyn

 

[TonyEmm]

Cars on A frames only become a pain to reverse if...They are on an 'Overrun' Braking system fitted in the car ( Similar to that of a caravan) . If they are electronically braked (as is ours) ...they are not a problem. Watching kev perform with the Fiat Abarth we have on a RVi Brake buddy system ....He just Makes it look simple! Never had a problem yet and we have met up with folks in tiny lanes who cannot reverse a car ! Kev just does what he has to and reverses it out of harm's way

Carolyn

Reversing some cars on an a-frame is a pain in the butt whatever system. It depends on the vehicle but the Smart 451 is notorious, it’s more like a shopping trolley when in reverse, the wheels go where they choose!

With regard to overrun couplings, if the brakes are set up correctly a TOAD should be impossible to reverse meaningfully, as the car doesn’t have auto-reverse braking mechanisms installed. Only trailers have the required system.

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

Reversing some cars on an a-frame is a pain in the butt whatever system. It depends on the vehicle but the Smart 451 is notorious, it’s more like a shopping trolley when in reverse, the wheels go where they choose!

With regard to overrun couplings, if the brakes are set up correctly a TOAD should be impossible to reverse meaningfully, as the car doesn’t have auto-reverse braking mechanisms installed. Only trailers have the required system.

You are wrong sorry . The Electronic brake system allows reversing and the truck it self is the brake for when in reverse. Having had both Smart 450 `and the 451 , the buggers were like you say...on Castor wheels when trying to reverse! Purely because of the mechanical steering and no power steering cylinder to aid or stop the "Wobble effect" being not power steering set up. That aside....Horses for courses as Kev would say.

Carolyn

 

[TonyEmm]

You are wrong sorry . The Electronic brake system allows reversing and the truck it self is the brake for when in reverse. Having had both Smart 450 `and the 451 , the buggers were like you say...on Castor wheels when trying to reverse! Purely because of the mechanical steering and no power steering cylinder to aid or stop the "Wobble effect" being not power steering set up. That aside....Horses for courses as Kev would say.

Carolyn

You say I’m wrong but then agree that a 451 is a pain the bum?

 

[Jackd]

Hook up a trailer and reverse round a corner, then hook up an a frame and complete the same manoeuvre.
I guarantee you will find your answer

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[Larrynwin]

Reversing some cars on an a-frame is a pain in the butt whatever system. It depends on the vehicle but the Smart 451 is notorious, it’s more like a shopping trolley when in reverse, the wheels go where they choose!

With regard to overrun couplings, if the brakes are set up correctly a TOAD should be impossible to reverse meaningfully, as the car doesn’t have auto-reverse braking mechanisms installed. Only trailers have the required system.

How do you know when you have stated that you have never used an a frame ?

 

[TonyEmm]

How do you know when you have stated that you have never used an a frame ?

We are talking overrun couplings. I know a LOT about them whether it be on a trailer or a toad! An overrun coupling is designed to work with auto-reverse brakes, a car doesn’t have them!

End of!

 

[TonyEmm]

How do you know when you have stated that you have never used an a frame ?

If you’re talking electronic activated, this demonstrates the problem adequately… . You’d have no tyres left and knackered suspension/steering arms if you go more than a few yards….

 

[Larrynwin]

If you’re talking electronic activated, this demonstrates the problem adequately… . You’d have no tyres left and knackered suspension/steering arms if you go more than a few yards….

Tony after towing with a frames of different types with different outfits for many years I really do not require your advice ..end of .

 

[TonyEmm]

Tony after towing with a frames of different types with different outfits for many years I really do not require your advice ..end of .

I don’t have a problem with that, just scroll on by !
I actually thought we might have a bit in common, I live on the Norfolk border, I’ve had 2 Hymers, I used to be a Pro-Photographer, but hey ho, you seem more intent on trying to shoot me down!

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[Larrynwin]

I don’t have a problem with that, just scroll on by !
I actually thought we might have a bit in common, I live on the Norfolk border, I’ve had 2 Hymers, I used to be a Pro-Photographer, but hey ho, you seem more intent on trying to shoot me down!

It is your constant anti a frame attitude also evident on Facebook under a different name.
If and I repeat if you had experienced a bad time with an a frame or any experience at all with an a frame that would be fine but you don’t.
This method of towing is not illegal in U.K. and is supported by DVLA recommendations and an extremely useful tool to many U.K. motorhomers to fully enjoy their hobby.

Now I will post no more on this.

 

[TonyEmm]

It is your constant anti a frame attitude also evident on Facebook under a different name.
If and I repeat if you had experienced a bad time with an a frame or any experience at all with an a frame that would be fine but you don’t.
This method of towing is not illegal in U.K. and is supported by DVLA recommendations and an extremely useful tool to many U.K. motorhomers to fully enjoy their hobby.

Now I will post no more on this.

I do not have an anti a-frame attitude! Built and fitted correctly, I have no issue with a frames per se, they may well be a perfectly viable alternative to a trailer for many folk.
The issue I have is that:
1. The DfT insist that they have to conform to Trailer regulations. I can put up a valid argument for every single a-frame being illegal under those rules. The problem isn’t the a-frames, it’s the rules/regs that were never written for a-frames in the first place. (The DfT, via the DVSA don’t enforce their own view, fortunately, or they’d all be off the roads!)

2. It’s the only sector I know of in the automotive industry that has no controls or standards.
Anyone (and I literally mean anyone) can build and fit one legally, regardless of skill, knowledge, or experience! If it wasn’t so serious an issue, it would be a joke!

Accidents fortunately are not too common, but it only takes one moment when you or yours are in the wrong place ,wrong time!
They still happen with trailers, which are now type approved and certificated. #TowSafe4Freddie

The recent issue that Realist felt obliged to post on my behalf demonstrates the risks. The fence the breakaway toad leant against had a railway line the other side in a ravine (remember Selby?). On a weekday, the pathway would have had children going back and forth to the nearby school, This could have been another Freddie! As it was, the pedestrians there were agile and quick enough to run, no one was hurt. But it could have been an entirely different story on a weekday.

I rest my case.

P.S. you mentioned profile names. Here I call myself. TonyEmm, on FB I’m Tony Maris. https://www.facebook.com/tony.maris.165/, not exactly hiding!
Surprisingly, I can’t find a Larrynwin on there, given your comment!

 

[TonyEmm]

Cars on A frames only become a pain to reverse if...They are on an 'Overrun' Braking system fitted in the car ( Similar to that of a caravan) . If they are electronically braked (as is ours) ...they are not a problem. Watching kev perform with the Fiat Abarth we have on a RVi Brake buddy system ....He just Makes it look simple! Never had a problem yet and we have met up with folks in tiny lanes who cannot reverse a car ! Kev just does what he has to and reverses it out of harm's way

Carolyn

It’s nice to know someone can reverse one! One of my favourite pastimes is watching folk in car parks trying to reverse their city cars between two white lines. As you’ll well know I’m sure, some just horrify you! You can’t lay the blame at one age group or gender either, it’s across the board!!

of course you then get the arrogant sh*ts who‘ll just drive in forwards regardless, park diagonally across a couple of disabled spaces and stuff everyone else!