Shaudt Elektroblock EBL 119 >>> LifePO4

[Ade99]

Have some experience of AGMs/Lithium etc from boats, but new to MH and my Burstner’s EBL 119 240v/12v power distribution/charger.

Want to upgrade existing 80Ah AGM to a 220Ah LifePO4 and add a 2000 watt inverter. Will use a 30amp DC-DC Charger / combined MPPT output to charge LifePO4 at correct charging profile.

Question is whether I can simply take the existing AGM charging cables (Ie the output) from the EBL119 and make this input on the B2B charger.

I’m not so bothered about how long it takes to charge as I know the EBL119 only charges at 18Ah. My solar is only 120 watts also.

Haven’t figured out where the alternator feed goes yet and what it’s charge rate is.

Question is whether it would harm the EBL 119 in any way if it fed the B2B charge. I wouldn’t need to upgrade cable size as system can still only deliver 18amp and existing shore power and alternator feed into the EBL doesn’t need to change.

Alternative is to run new thicker cables direct from the engine battery. Although if the EBL is only charging that battery at 18Ah, can’t see the benefit.

Can also consider new separate shore power changer for lithium. But higher cost/space etc and only benefit would be speed of charging.

Grateful for any views, thoughts, alternative options.

 

[autorouter]

Question is whether I can simply take the existing AGM charging cables (Ie the output) from the EBL119 and make this input on the B2B charger.

It's not that way round, unless I've misunderstood what you say. One way to wire up a B2B with an EBL is to remove the feed from the alternator/starter battery to the EBL, at the point where it enters at the back of the EBL. Connect that wire to the starter battery input of the B2B. then run a new wire of the same thickness from the B2B output to the starter battery terminal on the EBL, the one you just disconnected the wire from.

If you do this, the B2B output will go through the EBL, through the split charge relay inside the EBL, and out to the leisure battery terminal at the back of the EBL, and so to the leisure battery.

By the starter battery there will be a big fuse, maybe 50A, to the EBL. Next to it will be a small fuse maybe 2A or 5A, for the D+ (engine running) signal from the alternator. This D+ signal can be used to switch the B2B on and off, and is available on one of the EBL front connectors.

Whether all this is a good idea depends on the output of the B2B. 30A is about the limit of what I think the EBL can handle, and you wouldn't do this with a 60A B2B. But it's an easy way to wire in a B2B with minimum wiring changes.

 

[Ade99]

It's not that way round, unless I've misunderstood what you say. One way to wire up a B2B with an EBL is to remove the feed from the alternator/starter battery to the EBL, at the point where it enters at the back of the EBL. Connect that wire to the starter battery input of the B2B. then run a new wire of the same thickness from the B2B output to the starter battery terminal on the EBL, the one you just disconnected the wire from.

If you do this, the B2B output will go through the EBL, through the split charge relay inside the EBL, and out to the leisure battery terminal at the back of the EBL, and so to the leisure battery.

By the starter battery there will be a big fuse, maybe 50A, to the EBL. Next to it will be a small fuse maybe 2A or 5A, for the D+ (engine running) signal from the alternator. This D+ signal can be used to switch the B2B on and off, and is available on one of the EBL front connectors.

Whether all this is a good idea depends on the output of the B2B. 30A is about the limit of what I think the EBL can handle, and you wouldn't do this with a 60A B2B. But it's an easy way to wire in a B2B with minimum wiring changes.

Thanks for the reply. Really helps to start to understand the EBL etc. competent at general 12v electric but new to Motorhomes!

I can see how what you have suggested would work but concerned that I may be missing the advantage of the Lithium Charging profile and the max Amps of the B2B by passing it back through the EBL. In particular when left on Mains hook up. Presume the EBL relay simply passes through everything to the Leisure battery but is the mains charging still limited to the EBLs 18Ah and with a lead battery charging profile?

I could run appropriate sized cables direct from the engine battery as the input for the B2B and then output to the new Lithium Leisure battery but presume I then still need to feed a supply back into the EBL (from the leisure battery) for its 12v distribution function. Also not sure if there is any indirect impact of taking supply direct from the Engine battery.

Apologies as you can tell I’m still trying to figure out the wiring plan.

 

[Lenny HB]

As autorouter says you can connect via the EBL and will take upto 50 amps but I wouldn't do it that way as I have known a couple of instances where the contacts on the relay in the EBL are a bit carboned up and they then reduce the current flow. Better to connect the output of the B2B direct to the battery.

 

[berni109]

Now I have just been told I know nothing about vehicle electrics and that is mostly correct so take this comment with reservations.
This is what I have done - leave the EBL wired exactly as is but just pull the mains plug. This stops the incorrect charging profile going to the lithium battery when on hookup (also stops trickle to veh bat) everything hab will still work in the same way.
Hook the b2b as you say to veh bat. Get another 200w or more of solar onto the roof.
If on hookup and need to charge lithium (you probably won't unless you hammer the inverter) - plug in mains plug for a while to get the max bulk charge in.
(Using the EBL on off switch will I think be the same as pulling the plug but I have read in several places that the switch is a weak unit that fails more frequently than it should - this was some years ago maybe they have addresses that with later models)

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[Lenny HB]

Make sure you disconnect the starter battery feed to the EBL as this will disable the split charge relay, you can use the cable as the input to the B2B.

You can use the EBL on the Gel setting to charge Lithium not ideal but it will work OK.
If you want to disable the EBL charger there is a 20 amp fuse on the the EBL you can pull, then when on EHU it will just charge the starter battery.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

It's not that way round, unless I've misunderstood what you say. One way to wire up a B2B with an EBL is to remove the feed from the alternator/starter battery to the EBL, at the point where it enters at the back of the EBL. Connect that wire to the starter battery input of the B2B. then run a new wire of the same thickness from the B2B output to the starter battery terminal on the EBL, the one you just disconnected the wire from.

If you do this, the B2B output will go through the EBL, through the split charge relay inside the EBL, and out to the leisure battery terminal at the back of the EBL, and so to the leisure battery.

By the starter battery there will be a big fuse, maybe 50A, to the EBL. Next to it will be a small fuse maybe 2A or 5A, for the D+ (engine running) signal from the alternator. This D+ signal can be used to switch the B2B on and off, and is available on one of the EBL front connectors.

Whether all this is a good idea depends on the output of the B2B. 30A is about the limit of what I think the EBL can handle, and you wouldn't do this with a 60A B2B. But it's an easy way to wire in a B2B with minimum wiring changes.

With the advice of @lennyHB [ thanks Lenny ] that's how I have wired my B2B 30amp. However, [ cover your ears Lenny] I'm still using standard AGMs as they are fine for our requirements at the moment. We have 220w solar panel, with the MPPT controller feeding both batteries, and capable of any profile charging. The 119 we have can profile Gells when we're ready for that change. The B2B can also accommodate any charging profile. We could probably stay off grid almost indefinitely in good weather [ bright] but not sure in dull overcast, when the B2B would have earn it's crust. We have a cheap as chips inverter, that's plugged in when required using an Anderson socket permanantly attached to the leisure batteries, so can also have a second folding panel plugged straight into that via it's own controller. We can just about boil a kettle with the inverter, but it would be quicker on the gas hob, and less stressful on the batteries. Water and waste would mostly be the reason for moving to stays with full services.

Mike

 

[autorouter]

I could run appropriate sized cables direct from the engine battery as the input for the B2B and then output to the new Lithium Leisure battery but presume I then still need to feed a supply back into the EBL (from the leisure battery) for its 12v distribution function. Also not sure if there is any indirect impact of taking supply direct from the Engine battery.

That's an alternative wiring method, and is preferable if you are happy to run a new wire from the starter battery. It can be used for B2Bs of any amperage. You need to disable the split charge relay, to avoid it shorting out the B2B. And also as you say ensure you don't disable any other useful functions when you do that. It's easier with an EBL than with most other distribution boxes. All you have to do is pull that 50A fuse that I mentioned before, near the starter battery. That will stop any power to the split charge relay. It will still click on and off, but it won't do anything.

The other functions like the fridge 12V element supply, the starter battery voltage measuring and starter battery mains charging all go through an entirely different wire. It comes from the starter battery, through a 20A fuse next to that 50A fuse, and into the EBL via one of the front connectors.

The wire from the leisure battery to the EBL can be left as it is, to provide power for all the other functions.

Have you got the manual for the EBL119, with the wiring diagram at the back? It's available on the Schaudt website. The site's in German, but not impossible to navigate. In the support section, select 'Elektroblock EBL', 'mit ladefunction' (= with charging function), 'Anzeigertafel separat' ( = separate display panel). Click 'Artikel anzeigen' (= display articles) to show a list of manuals. Select the EBL119 English version and click 'Downloaden'. It asks for your email address. They send you an email with a download link, usually within a minute or two.

 

[Ade99]

Hi everyone. Thanks so much for all your very helpful comments. I’m new to the forum but already hugely impressed by everyone’s willingness to take the time to comment/share ideas. Thank you all.

I’m learning how to use/by pass the EBL so I think I’ll go with the last suggestion by autorouter of removing the 50amp fuse EBL supply from the engine batt, combined with running new cables from the engine batt to the B2B. (Presume the Alternator delivers its charge direct to the engine batt) And I’ve already downloaded the EBL manual. I should say that all the comments have helped me better understand how the system works.

I’ve always used Victron products previously (Orion Smart B2B) but currently looking at the new Renogy combined B2B/MPPT Solar Reg. (As I’ll need to replace my existing non lithium Solar Reg) The Renogy unit gets some good reviews on You Tube (Will Powse) and even offers a reverse trickle charge into the Engine Batt from Solar. Just not sure of its Bluetooth settings adjustment.

Also looking at the (British) Fogstar LifePO4 Battery 230Ah made with Grade A Prismaric Cells. Again gets a good tear down review on YouTube. But obviously no direct experience.

Still hunting for a 2000watt inverter. Any thoughts on any of the above just fire them through. Thanks.

 

[Ava the Adria]

Hi Ade,
We upgraded to 200Ah Lithium from 200Ah Lead on our Adria Matrix.
Like you, we found a lot of help and advice on here in the process.

We used the Votronic 30A B2B wired up as per the Votronic instructions attached below. You mention you have EBL which Votronic specifically mention in this diagram. Even if not using Votronic B2B, could you wire your B2B up to the same pattern?

To get round the mains charging issue, we fitted a Victron 20A mains powered Lithium charger and literally unplugged the mains cable from the Nordelletronica NE237 built in charger (which didn't have a lithium profile) and used this to power the Victron. Didn't need any major work or rewiring. The NE237 used to hum a lot and seemed to run hot as it was always putting its full 18 amps out charging the Lithiums.
(We actually wired ours up according to the second image, the one labelled "with EVS" to suit our Nordelletronica.)
Hope this helps.

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[autorouter]

Still hunting for a 2000watt inverter. Any thoughts on any of the above just fire them through.

If you're still at the blue sky stage and not committed to anything, it's worth looking at a Victron Multiplus 2000, because you might not appreciate just how good it is in a motorhome. First, it is a top-quality inverter. It also is a high current charger, up to 80A into a 12V battery. There is a second 1A output to trickle-charge the starter battery. But that's just the start.

Unlike other inverters, this one synchronises with the incoming mains. If the hookup post has a low limit, say 6A, you can set the incoming limit to 5A to avoid tripping the post. Then the charger will limit its input to 5A, which is its requirement at full charging power. If you turn on a 2A load, the charger will dial back to 3A, to keep the hookup post demand within the 5A limit.

If you switch on loads of 7A, it will turn off the charger, take 5A from the post, and add 2A by inverting from the batteries. When the load is off, the charger starts up again to put power back into the batteries. All done automatically, no user input needed after setting the hookup post limit.

And if you're not on hookup, it's still a top-quality inverter, with a high surge capacity to cope with load switch-on surges.

I know it looks like an expensive option, but if you're going for an inverter plus a new charger plus a trickle charger then you get all three in one unit. I'm mentioning all this because if you're not familiar with motorhome stuff you might not be aware, and find out after you've already bought a pile of kit.

 

[paddymcc]

I think I am right in saying that the combined Renogy MPPT and B2B will always split the charge current from B2B and solar. This means that whilst driving on a cloudy day you won't get the full benefit of the B2B . To prevent this you have to manually turn off the solar charger and then remember to turn it on again when the sun comes out.

 

[Ade99]

Thanks again everyone for those really helpful comments. Tad nervous about the Renogy option as unknown lesser quality kit - noted ‘paddymcc’ re your concern about split charging. Thanks also Ava the Adria for the wiring diagram for making use of the existing cables between Batts and the EBL. Had to stare at this for some time to see how they had re-purposed the cables but think I get it.

Also thanks again ‘autorouter’ for bringing up the Victron MultiPlus option. I have used one before on a boat and they are great bits of kit. However it all starts to become an expensive upgrade and I would have to run into the garage at the rear of the van to accommodate the size and ventilation etc. However it certainly is the Rolls Royce Solution.

As I’m still a bit undecided, instead of rushing into a solution, (as M/Homing is a very new venture for us), I think I’ll fit a Victron Smart Shunt to start with and wait until we’ve had a few trips away (on/off hook up) to assess our actual amps use etc. Been guilty of diving into solution too quickly before.

 

[nabsim]

I have a different EBL model but originally wired my Votronic B2B in using their instructions and it worked as they say. I changed this though as I was rarely getting more than 13.9A due to the gauge of cable used in my van. I believe Hymers have heavier cable than my Geist but I do not know about your model. I got a cable kit from simplysplitcharge.co.uk that was a real easy fit with everything needed.

 

[autorouter]

If you put an '@' in front of the username, it sends a notification to the username that they have been mentioned in your post, like this: Ade99.

Also it looks like you've used up your five free posts, and if you want to continue to post you'll need to subscribe. Lots of people on here think it's one of the best motorhome accessories you can buy.

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[Ade99]

If you put an '@' in front of the username, it sends a notification to the username that they have been mentioned in your post, like this: Ade99.

Also it looks like you've used up your five free posts, and if you want to continue to post you'll need to subscribe. Lots of people on here think it's one of the best motorhome accessories you can buy.

 

[Ade99]

Thanks autorouter .. I’m in (subscribed). Although still considering the full Victron Multi-Plus option, re the less costly option to bypass the EBL charging Circuit for the Leisure Batt, and taking B2B feed direct from the Engine Batt; are there any risks/problems? I.e. If the B2B is constantly drawing (up to 30Amps) from the Engine Batt I presume it means (on EHU) that the EBL charging to engine batt may get stressed trying to fill the demand? Might it damage it? I assume it simply means it will be on for longer. Presume the Alternator (which I think is delivering 50Ah+) delivers direct to the Engine Batt and shouldn’t be an issue. Seen some other threads on the D+ Ignition link for the B2B, Also helpful comment from paddymcc re the Renogy Unit. Think I’ll stick with Reliable Victron products that I’ve used before. (e.g. the Smart Orion and separate Smart MPPT).

 

[paddymcc]

Thanks autorouter .. I’m in (subscribed). Although still considering the full Victron Multi-Plus option, re the less costly option to bypass the EBL charging Circuit for the Leisure Batt, and taking B2B feed direct from the Engine Batt; are there any risks/problems? I.e. If the B2B is constantly drawing (up to 30Amps) from the Engine Batt I presume it means (on EHU) that the EBL charging to engine batt may get stressed trying to fill the demand? Might it damage it? I assume it simply means it will be on for longer. Presume the Alternator (which I think is delivering 50Ah+) delivers direct to the Engine Batt and shouldn’t be an issue. Seen some other threads on the D+ Ignition link for the B2B, Also helpful comment from paddymcc re the Renogy Unit. Think I’ll stick with Reliable Victron products that I’ve used before. (e.g. the Smart Orion and separate Smart MPPT).

The starter battery will always be topped up by the alternator so it shouldn't need much of a tip up when on EHU. I recently changed my starter battery as it was beginning to fail. It was the original 16 year old Mercedes battery so it hadn't done too badly. If you have solar it will always be topped up by that when you aren't using the van - with my version of EBL at least (101).

 

[autorouter]

If you use the D+ signal, the alternator will be charging the starter battery and also powering the B2B input, so there's no problem with the starter battery or the EBL. Actually the alternator is also powering the fridge 12V element, about 15A, through a separate circuit. That is also switched on and off with the D+. If you don't use the D+ signal, there's a chance the B2B could be switched on when the alternator is not charging, which is not such a good idea.

Switching on the B2B without the alternator will take power from the starter battery, which will soon drop its voltage and make the B2B switch off. Then the charger will bring the voltage back up again, and it will switch on again. Every few seconds, probably.

 

[Ade99]

If you use the D+ signal, the alternator will be charging the starter battery and also powering the B2B input, so there's no problem with the starter battery or the EBL. Actually the alternator is also powering the fridge 12V element, about 15A, through a separate circuit. That is also switched on and off with the D+. If you don't use the D+ signal, there's a chance the B2B could be switched on when the alternator is not charging, which is not such a good idea.

Switching on the B2B without the alternator will take power from the starter battery, which will soon drop its voltage and make the B2B switch off. Then the charger will bring the voltage back up again, and it will switch on again. Every few seconds, probably.

Thanks again all. Getting my head around it. I think I can start to see why others have fitted an additional 240v charger direct onto the Lithium batts. If I am right, by disabling the starter Batt feed into the EBL and wiring the 30Amp B2B direct from the starter Batt I should get good charging rate (max 30ah) via the Alt with engine running. Solar clearly dependent on panel wattage. However (and would be grateful for confirmation on this point) on EHU the engine batt only gets a 2ah trickle charge. Even if I override the D Signal to switch on the B2B (when on EHU) it can only draw limited capacity from the engine batt before the engine batt voltage will drop below the B2B cut off voltage. And then it’ll take a significant time at 2Ah trickle charge to build up sufficient capacity to start charging again. Am I right with this or missing something?

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[paddymcc]

B2Bs are only designed to supply power to the leisure battery when the engine is running . Not sure why you are considering this?
I have fitted a switch in the D+ wire to the B2B in order to stop it fully charging my lithium battery when I come home but only because lithium batteries are best stored at less than 100%.In reality I don't often use this if I anticipate heading off again after a short while.

 

[autorouter]

If you're wondering how to get a D+ signal to trigger the B2B, there is an easy way on the EBL119. Look at the 4-way connector on the front, labelled Block 1. The pins are numbered 1 to 4. I think you'll find that either Pin1 or Pin4 is not used. You can use the unused pin as a D+ signal, because it goes on and off when the D+ goes on and off.

The connector is an MnL type (Mate'N'Lok). The connector shells and pins are available separately, from auto electrics suppliers like 12VoltPlanet. You crimp a pin onto a wire, then slide the pin into the connector shell. A couple of barbs hold the pin as it clicks into place, to stop it coming out.

Mate N Lok Male Pin Terminal

Mate N Lok male pin crimp terminal for 0.5-2.0mm² cable. Tinned brass. Use with our range of Mate N Lok Universal multi-way connectors.

www.12voltplanet.co.uk