Replace the gas with an extra lithium plus inverter?

[quentinsf]

This is purely theoretical, because I'm waiting for my new van, which is small and, unlike the previous van, has a gas cylinder that is only used for the gas hobs. Not for oven, fridge, or heating.

It occurred to me that if we replaced the stove with an induction hob (which we would prefer), we wouldn't need the gas, and then perhaps the space used by the cylinder could instead fit an extra battery plus an inverter, which could also run other things (Air fryer? Longer off-grid fridge use? E-bike charging?).

I haven't run the numbers to see how much battery would be needed to be a sensible replacement for a gas hob, and I suspect any such change would be a bit pricey, but I do see more and more vans advertised as 'electric only' and that does appeal, partly because it's often easier to know when you're getting low on battery than when you're getting low on gas.

Anyine done, or thought of doing, anything similar?

 

[Mike001]

Will watch this thread with interest.
Have been thinking along the same lines also.

Edit to add: I already have 400ah lithium / 2000 watt inverter. Maybe double the lithium

 

[jumar]

This is purely theoretical, because I'm waiting for my new van, which is small and, unlike the previous van, has a gas cylinder that is only used for the gas hobs. Not for oven, fridge, or heating.

It occurred to me that if we replaced the stove with an induction hob (which we would prefer), we wouldn't need the gas, and then perhaps the space used by the cylinder could instead fit an extra battery plus an inverter, which could also run other things (Air fryer? Longer off-grid fridge use? E-bike charging?).

I haven't run the numbers to see how much battery would be needed to be a sensible replacement for a gas hob, and I suspect any such change would be a bit pricey, but I do see more and more vans advertised as 'electric only' and that does appeal, partly because it's often easier to know when you're getting low on battery than when you're getting low on gas.

Anyine done, or thought of doing, anything similar?

We've got 400a lithium a 2000w inverter and a 50a B2B...400w Solar completes our set up.
Two eBikes that we use daily are charged for two hours off the lithium set-up supported by the solar.
Low wattage Airfryer(1400w) is used, as is a 1800w Induction hob.
We don't hookup generally speaking, as this defeats to object of going Lithium.
Our fridge is 3 way, and a three burner hob is fitted in van, heating and hot water is Truma gas only.
Blessed with 300 days a year of sunshine living in Spain, this supports off grid motorhoming, however without this solar supported environment, we wouldn't be able to sustain ourselves, unless we drive daily 2 hours more or less or rely on hooking up.
Our gas supplied heating, water, fridge and hob remains a valuable asset to our way of motorhoming off grid.

 

[Shrimp]

I can’t see an all electric van surviving our British weather for extended periods without any hook-up.
Take this last summer we did have some lovely days but we did have a lot of grey ones and rain.
Not a problem abroad maybe as their sun sits higher in the sky and (seems) to be there more often.

 

[Manic]

Would it be viable to swap the hob with a diesel version

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[MisterB]

If you approach it from the direction of being able to replenish whatever primary source you want to use, it's irrelevant whatever source you use, just have a process for doing it that is easily achievable.
Limiting the amount of power source used will of course extend the time between replenishing.....

I have been wondering about removing our gas oven, worktop (gas hob) and fitting new worktop with inset induction hob, replacing 3 way fridge with a compressor fridge and installing a JB diesel hot water/heating unit, BUT it's really just fantasy land for me until something actually broke and needed to be replaced.

 

[AdrianChen]

A lot will depend on how you use the van - I think if you are predominately in sites with EHU, then going gassless is quite doable, albeit it may be more costly? Offgrid then the only way off topping up the batteries is Solar or driving with a B2B. Or a generator....

So the main issue is how much power you will use per day, and how that gets replaced. What the batteries provide is a bank to store your reserve....

We tried to work on 4 days of our projected usage, so we could last four days (without being restricted) in case there was a lack of solar (which at this time of year is most days in the UK!), and given we have a 180A alternator I don't want to take more than 60amps for the B2B. Perhaps the alternator is good for more than that and I am being over cautious. I could also fit a secondary alternator, but at cost and complexity with possibly some warranty implications.

So if you have a compressor fridge, deisel heating, etc your energy usage will be quite different from us with an electrically hungry 3 way fridge and Alde heating system. My thoughts were that If I change to Diesel heating/hot water and change the fridge to compressor I would still want a bit of gas for cooking I think because the oven and hob are Julies prefered tools for cooking and that would use a lot of battery power.

We could just add more battery which would give us longer offgrid say 300AH per 2.5 days without Solar/cooking? (We may be heavy users I cant judge), and rely on the sun coming back, or finding an EHU supply for the night, but the roof mounted Solar is maxed out at 550w, and the B2B at 50amp. Not worth the cost vs convenience for me unless part of specifying a new van with that in mind.

 

[MichaelT]

What type of van is it? If it's a PVC then you are likely limited by how much solar you can put on the roof which is the limiting factor as no use having 800ah of lithium if you can't replenish the energy you use.

For us we have 400w solar and 500ah of battery plus about 65a B2B and I've fitted a portable solar of 200w for winter use. We don't have an oven so use an air fryer/remoska/slow cooker for cooking, 1000w electric kettle and a toaster. We use gas for heating, water and fridge (fridge runs off inverter if I need to so it's good in summer when plenty of sun).

 

[Googlebot]

We have a 1000w inverter and 350w of solar. For 6 months of the year, it’s brilliant! The other 6 vary from just manage l, to might as well not have solar for all it does.

This week for instance, the solar hasn’t even kept up with 0.5amps of draw from the leisure batteries while it’s on the drive.

If you drive everyday and can hookup if needed then go for it.

An alternative would be a small portable stove for when you are running low.

 

[Jabstatt]

Induction all the way. You think about diesel and LPG and electricity now. Drops to diesel and electricity
A short drive on a big b2b as a last resort.

We actually went several days last summer using electricity even for showers.

Tony

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[jezport]

What do you use for heating?

 

[oldiesontour]

Unless you are in need of the few extra kg of payload or few extra cubic feet of space( eliminated by underslung LPG) I see no point in limiting your options.
We have 640w solar and 640amp lithium and 2 x 2000w inverters.1 refillable and 1 exchange bottles, suitcase Genny,(with 100amp charger.Diesel heating,gas/electric water.gas hob, compressor fridge/freezer,oven type air fryer...why put all your eggs in one basket ?

 

[Bessy765]

We are at Tomar, weather has been good. We have 700 watts of solar 2 x 100 Lithium and a Victron 12/2000/80 inverter/charger. Gas for heating fridge and cooker. Dometic cx 35 freezer. Even with this setup we are using our genny (Honda EU10i on lpg) for an hour, no matter how many batteries the power to charge has to come from somewhere

 

[BillandHelen]

We have gone completely gasless in our 6.4m panel van conversion, diesel Truma for heat and water, compressor fridge, double induction hob, Samsung convection/microwave powered through a 3000w inverter to all sockets. For charging we have 600amp lithium, 500w of solar, 60amp b2b and 30amp mains charger. Our normal daily usage is between 40 and 80 amps depending on what we cook.
For our usage we think we will be fine from spring to autumn, in winter up here in Scotland we tend to use campsites anyway, so no issue, but even without we could do 2/3 days and recharge by the b2b driving home. It’s early days for us but we think it will work well, only issue as others have said, is it’s all eggs in one basket.

 

[eddie]

This is purely theoretical, because I'm waiting for my new van, which is small and, unlike the previous van, has a gas cylinder that is only used for the gas hobs. Not for oven, fridge, or heating.

It occurred to me that if we replaced the stove with an induction hob (which we would prefer), we wouldn't need the gas, and then perhaps the space used by the cylinder could instead fit an extra battery plus an inverter, which could also run other things (Air fryer? Longer off-grid fridge use? E-bike charging?).

I haven't run the numbers to see how much battery would be needed to be a sensible replacement for a gas hob, and I suspect any such change would be a bit pricey, but I do see more and more vans advertised as 'electric only' and that does appeal, partly because it's often easier to know when you're getting low on battery than when you're getting low on gas.

Anyine done, or thought of doing, anything similar?

It will work really well

Just don’t go away November through to April

Or, buy a generator

Or, use hook up

But seriously, it’s not feasible unless your planning on being a lot further South

Diesel heating? That’s a whole different, do’able ball game

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[BlackIce]

We have also not used gas this year and mainly camp without hook up. We switched to a Webasto diesel heater a couple of years ago as camping in the winter used to empty our gas in a few days.
Ours is a 6m PVC and 230w of solar, originally we had 460a lithium which we used with induction hob, air fryer, microwave, ebikes ect but with overcast UK weather we were getting little yield from the solar and it only lasted 4 days. We then got an additional 460a battery and in the summer lasted 10 days no problem. We normally move every 2-6 days so the victron 50a B2B tops up the batteries up even in winter.
We still have a full gas tank so could use it in an emergency but after over a year of not using gas would no bother with it in the next van. BTW with 960a lithium, 2 e MTB's and full tanks we were still at 3250kg on the weighbridge with the 2 of us, dog and 3 weeks of gear.

 

[Tombola]

Longer off-grid fridge use?

here is the question, how long off grid through winter.
if you spend time on sites, with ehu to replensih batteries or driving, maybe not so bad.
And you will need a diesel heater

 

[Apacheman]

I’ve left my van pretty much original. Upped from a 100 to a 120 ah agm battery (original 4.5 years old) had fitted an 11kg gaslow bottle. Everything operates via gas, 12v or EHU on original fittings. USB ports recharge phones, kindles, shaver etc. 12v TVs. Times when we can’t use the microwave.
Do 2/3rds to 3/4 offsite park ups. Never had a problem. Not electrically intelligent, follow these threads and wonder whats the benefit of spending thousands on batteries, inverters, diesel heaters etc? I’m ready to be shot down.

 

[AdrianChen]

I’ve left my van pretty much original. Upped from a 100 to a 120 ah agm battery (original 4.5 years old) had fitted an 11kg gaslow bottle. Everything operates via gas, 12v or EHU on original fittings. USB ports recharge phones, kindles, shaver etc. 12v TVs. Times when we can’t use the microwave.
Do 2/3rds to 3/4 offsite park ups. Never had a problem. Not electrically intelligent, follow these threads and wonder whats the benefit of spending thousands on batteries, inverters, diesel heaters etc? I’m ready to be shot down.

Nope - if the van works how you want/need it to you have the best solution!

 

[AlanandMayya]

This is purely theoretical, because I'm waiting for my new van, which is small and, unlike the previous van, has a gas cylinder that is only used for the gas hobs. Not for oven, fridge, or heating.

It occurred to me that if we replaced the stove with an induction hob (which we would prefer), we wouldn't need the gas, and then perhaps the space used by the cylinder could instead fit an extra battery plus an inverter, which could also run other things (Air fryer? Longer off-grid fridge use? E-bike charging?).

I haven't run the numbers to see how much battery would be needed to be a sensible replacement for a gas hob, and I suspect any such change would be a bit pricey, but I do see more and more vans advertised as 'electric only' and that does appeal, partly because it's often easier to know when you're getting low on battery than when you're getting low on gas.

Anyine done, or thought of doing, anything similar?

Yes, we do this. We have a Transit DIY conversion with 1275 W of solar (correct, they do overhang just a bit), 8.8kW inverter and 20kWh of LiFePo batteries. It's been repeatedly pointed out to me, chiefly by our children, that that's a lot for a van. We also use the van to power our house, with further panels plugged in, so the system pays for itself. Although I installed a gas hob, we dont need it, and mainly use the microwave. In Jan and Feb, in southern Spain we camp indefinitely off-grid, even without engine charging. We have a 350W electric fan heater that heats the van in minutes. It was fine at -4C crossing the Pyrenees in Jan. Further North this wouldnt work, we'd be charging from EHU or engine. Engine charging is expensive energy, if you do this a lot its better to use gas and a diesel heater to reduce your electric load. You lose about 65% of the calorific value of the diesel in the generation process, much more efficient to burn it if heat is all you want. But we never go to where its cold and dark, which seems to me the whole point of a home on wheels, so this works well for us. (The photo on our account shows the previous setup with just 5kWh of battery, but you can see the panels). If we do need engine charging (a few times each trip in winter, mainly on the route there and back) we use a 2.5kW 12V -240V inverter to feed 240V to the solar inverter, which charges the (51V, 400Ah) battery bank from it. When talking about big systems its best to talk kW and kWh, rather than Amps and Ah, as the battery could be 12, 24, 48 or 51V. All the kit is domestic, not motorhome or marine. Its cheap. Ive just bought some 550 Wp panels from Leroy-Merlin (they stand in the garden and plug in to the van when we're home) for EUR 80 each. The key to making this work is to cover your whole roof with big, cheap, domestic panels.

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[oldiesontour]

Yes, we do this. We have a Transit DIY conversion with 1275 W of solar (correct, they do overhang just a bit), 8.8kW inverter and 20kWh of LiFePo batteries. It's been repeatedly pointed out to me, chiefly by our children, that that's a lot for a van. We also use the van to power our house, with further panels plugged in, so the system pays for itself. Although I installed a gas hob, we dont need it, and mainly use the microwave. In Jan and Feb, in southern Spain we camp indefinitely off-grid, even without engine charging. We have a 350W electric fan heater that heats the van in minutes. It was fine at -4C crossing the Pyrenees in Jan. Further North this wouldnt work, we'd be charging from EHU or engine. Engine charging is expensive energy, if you do this a lot its better to use gas and a diesel heater to reduce your electric load. You lose about 65% of the calorific value of the diesel in the generation process, much more efficient to burn it if heat is all you want. But we never go to where its cold and dark, which seems to me the whole point of a home on wheels, so this works well for us. (The photo on our account shows the previous setup with just 5kWh of battery, but you can see the panels). If we do need engine charging (a few times each trip in winter, mainly on the route there and back) we use a 2.5kW 12V -240V inverter to feed 240V to the solar inverter, which charges the (51V, 400Ah) battery bank from it. When talking about big systems its best to talk kW and kWh, rather than Amps and Ah, as the battery could be 12, 24, 48 or 51V. All the kit is domestic, not motorhome or marine. Its cheap. Ive just bought some 550 Wp panels from Leroy-Merlin (they stand in the garden and plug in to the van when we're home) for EUR 80 each. The key to making this work is to cover your whole roof with big, cheap, domestic panels.

Impressive but expensive for van only use,a lot of space,weight and no doubt wind drag ,why not leave it all at home except what is needed to run the van ?

 

[quentinsf]

Thanks all, lots of great stuff here. I think our van will come with 150Ah lithium and just 100W solar, so we'd need to boost both of those significantly! But, no, as mentioned, we wouldn't be trying to do any heating; we'll have diesel for that. This would just be for heating saucepans and kettles, and having more electrical flexibility and capability. Most of the places we go at present do actually have EHU, and in any case we seldom spend more than a couple of days without driving around. But retirement approaches, after which we may be more relaxed

It's true that the calor gas cylinder would probably last us a very long time, but am I right in thinking that there's still no really good way to know how much is in one? You know you need a new one when the kettle won't whistle any more?

 

[AdrianChen]

Thanks all, lots of great stuff here. I think our van will come with 150Ah lithium and just 100W solar, so we'd need to boost both of those significantly! But, no, as mentioned, we wouldn't be trying to do any heating; we'll have diesel for that. This would just be for heating saucepans and kettles, and having more electrical flexibility and capability. Most of the places we go at present do actually have EHU, and in any case we seldom spend more than a couple of days without driving around. But retirement approaches, after which we may be more relaxed

It's true that the calor gas cylinder would probably last us a very long time, but am I right in thinking that there's still no really good way to know how much is in one? You know you need a new one when the kettle won't whistle any more?

There are Mopeka sensors for gas, which might be more accurate, and have a phone app.....

 

[cyberyacht]

It's always a bit surprising and disappointing how the output of solar drops with the merest of haze in the sky, so unless you are in southern Spain, whilst solar will stretch your time off-grid, it doesn't perform energy miracles.

 

[MichaelT]

It's always a bit surprising and disappointing how the output of solar drops with the merest of haze in the sky, so unless you are in southern Spain, whilst solar will stretch your time off-grid, it doesn't perform energy miracles.

Even putting a skylight or dat dish up can kill it (don't ask how I know)

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[Lenny HB]

We have downsized to a small van, 6.7m A Class and put in a lot of electrical power.
I've fitted 460ah of Lithium, a 3000va inverter charger & 350 watts of solar.

We have a 800W electric kettle, air fryer & induction hob. The hob is only used for outside cooking in the summer.

Now had the van 6 months and what I can say it's nice having the powerful electrics but gas is king.
I don't get range anxiety with gas (2 x 14kg refillable) but I do with the batteries.

We are OffGrid at the moment arrived at 4:30pm yesterday anf by 9:30am this morning had used 95ah. Fridge on gas, heating on gas, gas hob, air fryer used for 20min. Kettle used a few times.

I could survive 5 to 6 nights being careful but where is the fun in that. But then I would need to get over 400ah back into the batteries, I have 120amp charger but still need to plug it in somewhere.
Solar doing sod all this time of year, if doing a long drive the B2B would put a fair bit back.

Even in Spain & Portugal in September & October the solar wasn't really coping, I will be adding another 200Watts that is the most I can get on the roof a total of 550 watts.

If you want to go fully electric I think you would need at least 1000ah of Lithium and more than 1000 watts of solar and you would still struggle in a UK winter.

 

[autorouter]

It occurred to me that if we replaced the stove with an induction hob (which we would prefer), we wouldn't need the gas, and then perhaps the space used by the cylinder could instead fit an extra battery plus an inverter, which could also run other things (Air fryer? Longer off-grid fridge use? E-bike charging?).

I haven't run the numbers to see how much battery would be needed to be a sensible replacement for a gas hob, and I suspect any such change would be a bit pricey, but I do see more and more vans advertised as 'electric only' and that does appeal, partly because it's often easier to know when you're getting low on battery than when you're getting low on gas.

Anyine done, or thought of doing, anything similar?

I have 600Ah of lithium with a Victron Multiplus 3000 inverter/charger. This runs a number of appliances like microwave, air fryer, kettle, rice cooker, slow cooker etc.

An advantage of the Multiplus over separate inverter and charger is that they coordinate. If you are on a 6A hookup (max 1380W) and you want to use 3000W it will make sure you only take 1380W from the hookup and the rest from the batteries/inverter. When done, it will charge the batteries up again automatically.

Another advantage is the charger is equivalent to a 140A 12V charger. So it charges up the batteries quite fast.

Also there is no need to book onto a camp site to get the batteries recharged. You can get a cable that connects to a vehicle EV charge point, and plugs into the MH round blue mains inlet. Because the charger is quite fast, it will fill at about 25% per hour, so a couple of hours gives a useful boost. Usually I can do shopping/sightseeing while I wait.

 

[MichaelT]

We have downsized to a small van, 6.7m A Class and put in a lot of electrical power.
I've fitted 460ah of Lithium, a 3000va inverter charger & 350 watts of solar.

We have a 800W electric kettle, air fryer & induction hob. The hob is only used for outside cooking in the summer.

Now had the van 6 months and what I can say it's nice having the powerful electrics but gas is king.
I don't get range anxiety with gas (2 x 14kg refillable) but I do with the batteries.

We are OffGrid at the moment arrived at 4:30pm yesterday anf by 9:30am this morning had used 95ah. Fridge on gas, heating on gas, gas hob, air fryer used for 20min. Kettle used a few times.

I could survive 5 to 6 nights being careful but where is the fun in that. But then I would need to get over 400ah back into the batteries, I have 120amp charger but still need to plug it in somewhere.
Solar doing sod all this time of year, if doing a long drive the B2B would put a fair bit back.

Even in Spain & Portugal in September & October the solar wasn't really coping, I will be adding another 200Watts that is the most I can get on the roof a total of 550 watts.

If you want to go fully electric I think you would need at least 1000ah of Lithium and more than 1000 watts of solar and you would still struggle in a UK winter.

I've fitted a second controller with fly leads and Anderson plugs to use a 200w renogy folding panel for winter as even more on the roof won't add much this time of year but 200w pointed at the sun if it's out will?

 

[AlanandMayya]

Impressive but expensive for van only use,a lot of space,weight and no doubt wind drag ,why not leave it all at home except what is needed to run the van ?

I agree, there are trade-offs. Most of the time the van is parked outside our house in UK or in Portugal, supplying whichever house we're in (including from fixed panels at each house that plug into the van) so our home energy bills are almost zero. I agree if not for this, it would be an expensive way to run a van. But its paid for itself already over the years. When we tour (apart from mid-winter) I take a few batteries out of the van to save weight, and leave them at home. One or two batteries out of the 4 is enough. When we go back to UK for the summer I will take 3 batteries as that is what we need in Weymouth from June to Sept. The inverter and batteries are actually quite compact, but yes the batteries are heavy - 40kg each. I havent noticed any drag from the panels. They are huge, but the frontal area is very small, little more than an empty pair of roof bars. The Transit (LWB - H3 L3; old 2.2 non-turbo diesel engine) gives 30mpg at a steady 60 mph, which is about what you'd expect. Compared to, say, a 12V 100Ah battery, solar charge controller, 12V-230V inverter, B-B charger, EHU charger and all the fuseboxes, isolators and busbars, I dont think the system is very big or heavy. There's a big space, weight and cost saving from packaging it all into one box.

 

[oldiesontour]

I agree, there are trade-offs. Most of the time the van is parked outside our house in UK or in Portugal, supplying whichever house we're in (including from fixed panels at each house that plug into the van) so our home energy bills are almost zero. I agree if not for this, it would be an expensive way to run a van. But its paid for itself already over the years. When we tour (apart from mid-winter) I take a few batteries out of the van to save weight, and leave them at home. One or two batteries out of the 4 is enough. When we go back to UK for the summer I will take 3 batteries as that is what we need in Weymouth from June to Sept. The inverter and batteries are actually quite compact, but yes the batteries are heavy - 40kg each. I havent noticed any drag from the panels. They are huge, but the frontal area is very small, little more than an empty pair of roof bars. The Transit (LWB - H3 L3; old 2.2 non-turbo diesel engine) gives 30mpg at a steady 60 mph, which is about what you'd expect. Compared to, say, a 12V 100Ah battery, solar charge controller, 12V-230V inverter, B-B charger, EHU charger and all the fuseboxes, isolators and busbars, I dont think the system is very big or heavy. There's a big space, weight and cost saving from packaging it all into one box.

Makes good sense with having 2 homes something I would have considered having a rural off grid bungalow (ex olive farm 6ha) in Spain..bought 3kw panels/controller and 3kw inverter but change of circumstances (Brexit) means renovated bungalow but not done solar yet,now going to sell property (no doubt at a substantial loss) otherwise would have strongly considered your solution

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