Preventing EBL from charging Lithium batteries (1 Viewer)

[Lizbiebrowne]

I’ve got a halfway house lithium installation in my Hymer B654, put together at short notice last year, where I have both lithium and lead acid batteries. The lithium battery operates an inverter that allows 240 V when off-grid and the lead acid batteries supply the 12 V side.

I’ve got more time now so I’d like to move the 12 V side over to the lithium battery and dispense with the lead acid batteries. My question: is there a way I can prevent the loop of the EBL trying to charge lithium battery whilst the lithium battery is powering the inverter (or when I'm on EHU) other than by pulling the mains lead out of the EBL?

 

[monzer]

There is a fuse you can pull in the EBL that will disconnect the charger. Its called ladegerat or something.

 

[Lenny HB]

As monzer says, position varies on different models.

 

[StillGoing]

I’ve got a halfway house lithium installation in my Hymer B654, put together at short notice last year, where I have both lithium and lead acid batteries. The lithium battery operates an inverter that allows 240 V when off-grid and the lead acid batteries supply the 12 V side.

I’ve got more time now so I’d like to move the 12 V side over to the lithium battery and dispense with the lead acid batteries. My question: is there a way I can prevent the loop of the EBL trying to charge lithium battery whilst the lithium battery is powering the inverter (or when I'm on EHU) other than by pulling the mains lead out of the EBL?

Do you want to permanently switch off the charger (if so, remove the fuse as stated above) or just when not on EHU?

 

[Lizbiebrowne]

There is a fuse you can pull in the EBL that will disconnect the charger. Its called ladegerat or something.

As monzer says, position varies on different models.

View attachment 862814

Do you want to permanently switch off the charger (if so, remove the fuse as stated above) or just when not on EHU?

Thanks all, that looks like the way forward. I've found that fuse on my EBL100.

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[Speve]

I just disconnected the power lead on the back of the EBL

 

[autorouter]

I just disconnected the power lead on the back of the EBL

That's the wrong one for this problem. It's the solution for fitting a B2B to stop the loop charging via the split charge relay. It's not relevant to the OP's problem of charging the inverter battery via the inverter and mains charger.

 

[autorouter]

I’ve got a halfway house lithium installation in my Hymer B654, put together at short notice last year, where I have both lithium and lead acid batteries. The lithium battery operates an inverter that allows 240 V when off-grid and the lead acid batteries supply the 12 V side.

I’ve got more time now so I’d like to move the 12 V side over to the lithium battery and dispense with the lead acid batteries. My question: is there a way I can prevent the loop of the EBL trying to charge lithium battery whilst the lithium battery is powering the inverter (or when I'm on EHU) other than by pulling the mains lead out of the EBL?

It sounds like you are sending the inverter power to the whole of the motorhome mains circuits. Presumably this happens only when you do not have an EHU connection (you don't want to be mixing hookup mains and inverter mains, unless it's a Multiplus inverter/charger or similar). Pulling the fuse whenever you switch over to the inverter is one solution.

However the best solution is to separate the loads into 'inverter' and 'non-inverter' loads, on separate MCBs in the consumer unit. Non-inverter loads could be the charger, water heater and fridge for example. Probably in a Hymer all the wires to all the appliances and sockets will come back on separate wires to the consumer unit, and the wires will even be labelled (in German, probably). It will be fairly easy to separate them, and there may be room for an extra MCB in the consumer unit.

Then fit a transfer switch, which is a double-pole switch for switching the inverter loads between hookup and inverter. The switch can be manual, or a relay that switches over automatically whenever the hookup is connected.

 

[dawsey]

To solve this issue I fitted a 3 way switch so that either the hook up or the (lithium battery fed) invertor (but absolutely not both at the same time) can feed the 240V systems via direct connection to the distribution box, then I fitted a 50A ideal diode between the 12V connection between the lithium batteries and the electroblok. Additionally installed is 600W of solar and a 25/50A integrated MPPT/B2B to keep the lithiums charge as we are very heavy users of mains power. Two 100ah lithium in parallel for leisure and a 12V lead acid starter battery.

Thus, the lithiums discharge 12V to the electroblok to power all 12V systems but the charger in the EBL cannot charge the lithiums, it’s done by solar or the B2B when engine running (or both).

Why like this? it’s foolproof. No remembering to plug/unplug the 240v feed to the EBL. No worrying about overloading electricals or the alternator.

Also, if the van is inside or undercover in the winter, and left connected to mains via EHU, the charger in the EBL will charge the lead acid starter battery and when it’s full, its voltage rises, the B2B thinks the engine is running and then starts to slowly charge the lithiums. The same happens when on EHU on-site so the lithiums will still slowly recharge overnight or where no sun.

PM me if any further info is needed. We’ve been living in the van with this system for 15months inc two winters and it works perfectly. We run a decent sound system, air fryer, microwave, TV, hairdryer, air-conditioner and all sorts of other mains electricals frim our permanently live 240V circuits

 

[Speve]

That's the wrong one for this problem. It's the solution for fitting a B2B to stop the loop charging via the split charge relay. It's not relevant to the OP's problem of charging the inverter battery via the inverter and mains charger.

Sorry my bad I have a Multiplus with dual consumer units which takes the EBL out of my charging regime completely

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[fred_jb]

My van has separate circuit breakers for the 240V sockets and the main supply to the EBL charger. I therefore thought it would be simple to put the autoswitching invertor in line with breaker supplying the mains sockets so that they either got supplied from the EHU via the invertor or by the invertor itself when it is switched on and there is no EHU.

Fortunately while wiring this up I found that Etrusco, for reasons best known to themselves, had not connected the EBL via its own breaker but instead had wired it into the junction box supplying the mains sockets. If I had not discovered and corrected this I would have a,situation where the leisure battery would be trying to charge itself via the invertor!

I guess the moral of the story is not to assume that the convertor is entirely competent and always do your own checks!

 

[Lizbiebrowne]

It sounds like you are sending the inverter power to the whole of the motorhome mains circuits. Presumably this happens only when you do not have an EHU connection (you don't want to be mixing hookup mains and inverter mains, unless it's a Multiplus inverter/charger or similar). Pulling the fuse whenever you switch over to the inverter is one solution.

However the best solution is to separate the loads into 'inverter' and 'non-inverter' loads, on separate MCBs in the consumer unit. Non-inverter loads could be the charger, water heater and fridge for example. Probably in a Hymer all the wires to all the appliances and sockets will come back on separate wires to the consumer unit, and the wires will even be labelled (in German, probably). It will be fairly easy to separate them, and there may be room for an extra MCB in the consumer unit.

Then fit a transfer switch, which is a double-pole switch for switching the inverter loads between hookup and inverter. The switch can be manual, or a relay that switches over automatically whenever the hookup is connected.

During my halfway house installation I fitted a Sterling Power 230V Manual 3-Way Crossover Switch 32A to switch between EHU and the Li battery's inverter and that works well so there's no danger of them both being on at the same time. I'm not sure about separating the loads as whilst I wouldn't want the fridge to be powered by the inverter I would want it to be powered when on EHU.

To solve this issue I fitted a 3 way switch so that either the hook up or the (lithium battery fed) invertor (but absolutely not both at the same time) can feed the 240V systems via direct connection to the distribution box, then I fitted a 50A ideal diode between the 12V connection between the lithium batteries and the electroblok. Additionally installed is 600W of solar and a 25/50A integrated MPPT/B2B to keep the lithiums charge as we are very heavy users of mains power. Two 100ah lithium in parallel for leisure and a 12V lead acid starter battery.

Thus, the lithiums discharge 12V to the electroblok to power all 12V systems but the charger in the EBL cannot charge the lithiums, it’s done by solar or the B2B when engine running (or both).

Why like this? it’s foolproof. No remembering to plug/unplug the 240v feed to the EBL. No worrying about overloading electricals or the alternator.

Also, if the van is inside or undercover in the winter, and left connected to mains via EHU, the charger in the EBL will charge the lead acid starter battery and when it’s full, its voltage rises, the B2B thinks the engine is running and then starts to slowly charge the lithiums. The same happens when on EHU on-site so the lithiums will still slowly recharge overnight or where no sun.

PM me if any further info is needed. We’ve been living in the van with this system for 15months inc two winters and it works perfectly. We run a decent sound system, air fryer, microwave, TV, hairdryer, air-conditioner and all sorts of other mains electricals frim our permanently live 240V circuits

I'm no electrician but this seems like an ideal solution to the problem, simply preventing the EBL charging the Li battery using a diode. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Billy192]

There is a fuse you can pull in the EBL that will disconnect the charger. Its called ladegerat or something.

i pull the middle fuse on my EBL 31 when running off the Lithium. put it back in when on EHU if a top up needed.
Billy

 

[Lenny HB]

View attachment 862892
i pull the middle fuse on my EBL 31 when running off the Lithium. put it back in when on EHU if a top up needed.
Billy

You would still be powering the charger and charging the starter battery, pulling the fuse only disables leisure battery charging.

 

[monzer]

View attachment 862892
i pull the middle fuse on my EBL 31 when running off the Lithium. put it back in when on EHU if a top up needed.
Billy

Lademodul... I was close

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[dawsey]

During my halfway house installation I fitted a Sterling Power 230V Manual 3-Way Crossover Switch 32A to switch between EHU and the Li battery's inverter and that works well so there's no danger of them both being on at the same time. I'm not sure about separating the loads as whilst I wouldn't want the fridge to be powered by the inverter I would want it to be powered when on EHU.

I'm no electrician but this seems like an ideal solution to the problem, simply preventing the EBL charging the Li battery using a diode. Thanks for the suggestion.

No problem. You’d need a 50A Ideal diode, about £7 from ebay or amazon.

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/17503268543...pid=5339023013&customid=&toolid=10001&mkevt=1

Also recommended is an integrated B2B/Solar MPPT charge controller. I use Renogy. It prioritises solar and always charges with solar when it’s available, up to 25A or about 500W of solar (solar OPV is about 19V), but adds 25A from the engine when it’s running and it’s daylight. 25A (peak) from solar plus 25A from the alternator = up to 50A charging.

A cool thing is when darkness falls as you are driving it sees no solar output and switches to charging at 50A from the alternator. I added a switch to isolate the solar panels when in Winter you might be getting 1-2A from the panels, better to isolate, con the unit into thinking it’s dark so you get the full 50A from the alternator.

The fridge is 3 way and normally is on gas or 12V when engine running, but when we have 100% battery charge and it is sunny we switch it to 240V where it is then powered by the solar panels

The coolest thing, however is that in full sun we get about 500W going in from the solar panels, it’s nearly enough to power the 600W roof mounted aircon alone - it needs minimal additional from the engine to keep the AC unit running through the worst of the heat. With the batteries fully charged we can key off and run the AC for another 3 hours taking no more than 50% of the batteries total capacity before charging recommences at sunrise the next day.

I found that if stuck in one place I very much prefer to be under a tree or in any other shade in southern europe in the peak of summer or the van just gets too hot and the AC is just fighting a losing battle - Th e problem is this means minimal solar charging, if still in the van this summer the solution will be an additional remote portable array.

 

[orourkeith]

As monzer says, position varies on different models.

View attachment 862814

Hi Lenny , I am new here and got my first motorhome 2003 burstner elegance it had a few problems when I got it mostly electrical and got a reconditioned ebl 99 , I now want it doing as little as possible so have disconnected the kettle lead and got three 100ah lithium batteries and a renogy 40 amp b2b , I have used the pre wired cables from the starter battery into the renogy taken from the ebl 99 and left the ebl connected to the house batteries, I plan to run two new 8awg cables directly to the lithium batteries completely bypassing the ebl ( I know there is a way to connect through the ebl but Id prefer not to do that) I took the D+ from the D+ cable on the yellow wire on block two of the fridge connection , My question is do you think this is ok and won’t cause me any problems ? Any time I research anything to do with the ebl your name pops up so that’s why I jumped on here to ask you I hope that’s ok , Thanks in advance Keith

 

[Lizbiebrowne]

I would think the existing cables from your starter battery that you want to extend and divert away from your EBL to your Li batteries will be 16 mm2 so 8 AWG cables won't be large enough, 5 AWG might be more suitable. See https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/cable-size-table.html.

 

[orourkeith]

I would think the existing cables from your starter battery that you want to extend and divert away from your EBL to your Li batteries will be 16 mm2 so 8 AWG cables won't be large enough, 5 AWG might be more suitable. See https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/cable-size-table.html.

Thanks and sorrry for hijacking your thread

The 8awg I have is a short run from the renogy 40 to the leisure battery 3 feet if that and is rated at 83amps so I think I will be ok there with a 50amp fuse

My main worry is the ebl playing up or will me bypassing it completely take that out of the equation

 

[autorouter]

I think your method of bypassing the EBL99 will work OK. The split charge relay is inside the EBL, and if you remove the starter battery input wire like you say, then there is no input to the split charge relay. It will still click on and off when the engine starts and stops, but it won't do anything. All the other starter battery functions like the fridge 12V heater supply and starter battery voltage display go through a different wire so will not be affected.

Regarding the wire thickness, the important thing is the voltage drop due to the resistance of the wires when carrying a high current. The voltage drop can be calculated using a voltage drop calculator, such as this one:

Voltage Drop Calculator | 12 Volt Planet

Use our Voltage Drop Calculator to select the correct Cable for your campervan, motorhome or boat wiring application. Auto and Marine Electrical Components from 12 Volt Planet - Cable Size Calculator

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

I get a drop of 1.47% with 8.5mm sq for a 1m run. You need to calculate the total voltage drop over the full length from battery to B2B, and keep it below 3 or 4% total. If the voltage drop is OK then the cable amps capacity will be well within the limits.

One other thing - when you disconnected the kettle lead supply to the EBL mains charger, that will stop the starter battery getting a trickle charge as it used to before. There's a relay that's activated when the mains charger is on, and that won't come on any more. Alternatives are a battery maintainer (eg BatteryMaster) which trickle-charges the starter battery from the leisure battery, or a dual output solar controller that has an output to trickle charge the starter battery.

Also useful to know, if you put a '@' in front of a name on here, it automatically turns blue and sends a notification that they have been mentioned in a thread. Like this: Lenny HB

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[orourkeith]

I think your method of bypassing the EBL99 will work OK. The split charge relay is inside the EBL, and if you remove the starter battery input wire like you say, then there is no input to the split charge relay. It will still click on and off when the engine starts and stops, but it won't do anything. All the other starter battery functions like the fridge 12V heater supply and starter battery voltage display go through a different wire so will not be affected.

Regarding the wire thickness, the important thing is the voltage drop due to the resistance of the wires when carrying a high current. The voltage drop can be calculated using a voltage drop calculator, such as this one:

Voltage Drop Calculator | 12 Volt Planet

Use our Voltage Drop Calculator to select the correct Cable for your campervan, motorhome or boat wiring application. Auto and Marine Electrical Components from 12 Volt Planet - Cable Size Calculator

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

I get a drop of 1.47% with 8.5mm sq for a 1m run. You need to calculate the total voltage drop over the full length from battery to B2B, and keep it below 3 or 4% total. If the voltage drop is OK then the cable amps capacity will be well within the limits.

One other thing - when you disconnected the kettle lead supply to the EBL mains charger, that will stop the starter battery getting a trickle charge as it used to before. There's a relay that's activated when the mains charger is on, and that won't come on any more. Alternatives are a battery maintainer (eg BatteryMaster) which trickle-charges the starter battery from the leisure battery, or a dual output solar controller that has an output to trickle charge the starter battery.

Also useful to know, if you put a '@' in front of a name on here, it automatically turns blue and sends a notification that they have been mentioned in a thread. Like this: Lenny HB

 

[orourkeith]

I think your method of bypassing the EBL99 will work OK. The split charge relay is inside the EBL, and if you remove the starter battery input wire like you say, then there is no input to the split charge relay. It will still click on and off when the engine starts and stops, but it won't do anything. All the other starter battery functions like the fridge 12V heater supply and starter battery voltage display go through a different wire so will not be affected.

Regarding the wire thickness, the important thing is the voltage drop due to the resistance of the wires when carrying a high current. The voltage drop can be calculated using a voltage drop calculator, such as this one:

Voltage Drop Calculator | 12 Volt Planet

Use our Voltage Drop Calculator to select the correct Cable for your campervan, motorhome or boat wiring application. Auto and Marine Electrical Components from 12 Volt Planet - Cable Size Calculator

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

I get a drop of 1.47% with 8.5mm sq for a 1m run. You need to calculate the total voltage drop over the full length from battery to B2B, and keep it below 3 or 4% total. If the voltage drop is OK then the cable amps capacity will be well within the limits.

One other thing - when you disconnected the kettle lead supply to the EBL mains charger, that will stop the starter battery getting a trickle charge as it used to before. There's a relay that's activated when the mains charger is on, and that won't come on any more. Alternatives are a battery maintainer (eg BatteryMaster) which trickle-charges the starter battery from the leisure battery, or a dual output solar controller that has an output to trickle charge the starter battery.

Also useful to know, if you put a '@' in front of a name on here, it automatically turns blue and sends a notification that they have been mentioned in a thread. Like this: Lenny HB

That’s perfect autorouter really appreciate all the tips and I’m delighted my plan will work I will calculate the voltage drop off and if I have to I will order more suitable cable ,

The kettle lead is too short and was putting pressure on the front of the ebl so I am going to pick up an extension for it

I will attach it if I am ever on electric hook up to trickle charge the engine battery

I got a new starter battery and installed a battery cut off switch to keep it protected while not in use

Thanks again

 

[autorouter]

If you get the mains charger working again, then that will activate the relay to allow trickle-charging of the starter battery. There is a fuse labelled 'Internes Lademodul' (= internal charge module) on the mains charger output. If you pull this fuse, it stops the mains charger output, but the trickle charge relay still activates. So anything else that charges the leisure battery (solar, another separate mains charger, etc) will also trickle-charge the starter battery.

I presume you've got the internal wiring diagram of the EBL99, it's available on the Schaudt website. The site's in German, but there are English manual versions available. The diagram is at the end of the manual.

 

[orourkeith]

If you get the mains charger working again, then that will activate the relay to allow trickle-charging of the starter battery. There is a fuse labelled 'Internes Lademodul' (= internal charge module) on the mains charger output. If you pull this fuse, it stops the mains charger output, but the trickle charge relay still activates. So anything else that charges the leisure battery (solar, another separate mains charger, etc) will also trickle-charge the starter battery.

I presume you've got the internal wiring diagram of the EBL99, it's available on the Schaudt website. The site's in German, but there are English manual versions available. The diagram is at the end of the manual.

Oh I actually didn’t know that I have 400 watts of solar also bypassing the ebl

So if I get the kettle lead extension and plug that back in and remove that fuse I will trickle charge the engine battery from the solar panel that’s even better

I plan on getting a separate mains charger for the lithium batteries also for the times I am on hookup (rarely) am I correct in saying that with that fuse removed that I will disable the charging of the house batteries that would be perfect for my needs

I do have the download of the manual and I understand the mate n lock connections but most of the fuses I don’t know there functions

Thanks again

 

[orourkeith]

If you get the mains charger working again, then that will activate the relay to allow trickle-charging of the starter battery. There is a fuse labelled 'Internes Lademodul' (= internal charge module) on the mains charger output. If you pull this fuse, it stops the mains charger output, but the trickle charge relay still activates. So anything else that charges the leisure battery (solar, another separate mains charger, etc) will also trickle-charge the starter battery.

I presume you've got the internal wiring diagram of the EBL99, it's available on the Schaudt website. The site's in German, but there are English manual versions available. The diagram is at the end of the manual.

Oh I actually didn’t know that I have 400 watts of solar also bypassing the ebl

So if I get the kettle lead extension and plug that back in and remove that fuse I will trickle charge the engine battery from the solar panel that’s even better

I plan on getting a separate mains charger for the lithium batteries also for the times I am on hookup (rarely) am I correct in saying that with that fuse removed that I will disable the charging of the house batteries that would be perfect for my needs

I do have the download of the manual and I understand the mate n lock connections but most of the fuses I don’t know there functions

Thanks again

Forgot to autorouter you , I’m learning

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[autorouter]

I do have the download of the manual and I understand the mate n lock connections but most of the fuses I don’t know there functions

Here's a translation that might help

EBL Front panel translation

Fuses:
Internes Lademodul: Internal Charge Module
Kompr/AES Kuhlschrank: Compressor/AES Refrigerator

Batterie-Trennschalter: Battery Isolation Switch
Batterie Ein: On
Batterie Aus: Off

Heizung: Heating
Grundlicht/Trittstufe: Step Light/Step
Reserve: Spare
Solar: Solar
Zusatz Ladegerat: Auxiliary charger device
Kreis: Circuit
TV: TV
Pumpe: Pump

Netz: 230V AC Mains

Instr.-Tafel: Instrument Panel
Zus.-Lader: Auxiliary charger
Solar-Regler: Solar regulator

Batterie-Wahl: Battery Selection
Blei-Saure: Lead-acid
Blei-Gel: Lead-Gel

IUoU: Standard symbol for 3-stage smart charger
I: Bulk stage
Uo: Absorption stage
U: Float stage

Pb-Akku: Lead Battery.

Vorsicht! Ruckseite wird bei Betrieb heiß. Nicht beruhren!
Caution! The back gets hot during operation. Do not touch!


Bei Anschlußarbeiten das Gerat vom Netz trennen!
Disconnect the device from the mains during connection work!

 

[orourkeith]

Here's a translation that might help

EBL Front panel translation

Fuses:
Internes Lademodul: Internal Charge Module
Kompr/AES Kuhlschrank: Compressor/AES Refrigerator

Batterie-Trennschalter: Battery Isolation Switch
Batterie Ein: On
Batterie Aus: Off

Heizung: Heating
Grundlicht/Trittstufe: Step Light/Step
Reserve: Spare
Solar: Solar
Zusatz Ladegerat: Auxiliary charger device
Kreis: Circuit
TV: TV
Pumpe: Pump

Netz: 230V AC Mains

Instr.-Tafel: Instrument Panel
Zus.-Lader: Auxiliary charger
Solar-Regler: Solar regulator

Batterie-Wahl: Battery Selection
Blei-Saure: Lead-acid
Blei-Gel: Lead-Gel

IUoU: Standard symbol for 3-stage smart charger
I: Bulk stage
Uo: Absorption stage
U: Float stage

Pb-Akku: Lead Battery.

Vorsicht! Ruckseite wird bei Betrieb heiß. Nicht beruhren!
Caution! The back gets hot during operation. Do not touch!


Bei Anschlußarbeiten das Gerat vom Netz trennen!
Disconnect the device from the mains during connection work!

Thanks autorouter