Orion 50 amp B2B

[Take2]

Just finished fitting the Orion 50 amp dc charger but think I’ve got a possible issue.
Because it’s only in the non isolated form, ie a common earth.
How can the Victron shunt detect its incoming charge?
Hoping I’m just being blind by the obvious and it’ll still work as the Two batteries share a common earth!!?
Cheers

 

[Googlebot]

Just finished fitting the Orion 50 amp dc charger but think I’ve got a possible issue.
Because it’s only in the non isolated form, ie a common earth.
How can the Victron shunt detect its incoming charge?
Hoping I’m just being blind by the obvious and it’ll still work as the Two batteries share a common earth!!?
Cheers

The shunt works by detecting battery charge and discharge, the B2B has no effect on it at all, non isolated or isolated. It just needs to be the last negative connection between the battery and everything else.

Only reason for the isolated version of the Orion was to stop galvanic corrosion on boats I believe, on road vehicles it didn’t make any difference.

 

[Take2]

The shunt works by detecting battery charge and discharge, the B2B has no effect on it at all, non isolated or isolated. It just needs to be the last negative connection between the battery and everything else.

Only reason for the isolated version of the Orion was to stop galvanic corrosion on boats I believe, on road vehicles it didn’t make any difference.

Erm ok so it’s really only the outputs that need to be connected to the shunt?

The shunt works by detecting battery charge and discharge, the B2B has no effect on it at all, non isolated or isolated. It just needs to be the last negative connection between the battery and everything else.

Only reason for the isolated version of the Orion was to stop galvanic corrosion on boats I believe, on road vehicles it didn’t make any difference.

Erm ok so it’s really only the outputs that need to be connected to the shunt?

I remembered before your reply that I’d not set the 60 amp breaker from charger to battery after setting up the charger. But good to know, thanks

 

[jumar]

Victron App will give you the complete charge profile on your phone or tablet..I assume you used it to set up the DC2,DC charger as part of your installation

 

[Googlebot]

Erm ok so it’s really only the outputs that need to be connected to the shunt?

I remembered before your reply that I’d not set the 60 amp breaker from charger to battery after setting up the charger. But good to know, thanks

The shunt just needs to be the last connection on the negative to the battery, as in, all negatives should go to the shunt instead of the battery, then 1 connection only to the negative terminal on the battery from the shunt.

The B2B positives, 1 to starter battery and 1 to habitation battery. The negative can go to the shunt or a convenient earth point nearby that’s chunky enough.

What breaker are you using? The cheap ones are notorious for being rubbish, much better to use a midi fuse. I fused mine at both ends as near the battery as possible with 60 amp fuses, though I am sure Lenny HB said it was now recommended to use 80amp fuses.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[AdrianChen]

Just finished fitting the Orion 50 amp dc charger but think I’ve got a possible issue.
Because it’s only in the non isolated form, ie a common earth.
How can the Victron shunt detect its incoming charge?
Hoping I’m just being blind by the obvious and it’ll still work as the Two batteries share a common earth!!?
Cheers

As long as you have connected the B2B's single negative to a decent earth point, or the load terminal of the shunt, then it will be fine.

99% of vans will have a common earth, so the start battery and the leisure battery will be connected through the chassis.

There are vehicles with sensitive kit on them such as ambulance's? where its important that there's no possible interference from the vehicle electrics, so those may not have a common earth, with the specialist kit isolated from the vehicle. Boats also use them to avoid sources of galvanic corrosion, and in some cases possible disruption to the navigation instruments hence isolated B2B's. The orion XS is not yet available in isolated form.

 

[Lenny HB]

Just to make it a bit clearer there should be only one connection to the leisure battery negative terminal and that is the shunt.

All other negative connections go to the load side of the shunt.
Then all outgoing and incoming current to the battery will be seen by the shunt..

 

[Take2]

Just to make it a bit clearer there should be only one connection to the leisure battery negative terminal and that is the shunt.

All other negative connections go to the load side of the shunt.
Then all outgoing and incoming current to the battery will be seen by the shunt..

Thanks for all the help and advice guys. Checked the charge with engine running and getting the fifty from dc dc.
Yes. Just the one connection to leisure batt. My query was that while the negatives going to inverter/solar panels connected to the system side of shunt to record what’s going out and coming in, the dc dc charger being non isolated doesn’t have an earth output, just the pos. But it must be working like I say the BMV is reading the 50amps.

 

[Take2]

As long as you have connected the B2B's single negative to a decent earth point, or the load terminal of the shunt, then it will be fine.

99% of vans will have a common earth, so the start battery and the leisure battery will be connected through the chassis.

There are vehicles with sensitive kit on them such as ambulance's? where its important that there's no possible interference from the vehicle electrics, so those may not have a common earth, with the specialist kit isolated from the vehicle. Boats also use them to avoid sources of galvanic corrosion, and in some cases possible disruption to the navigation instruments hence isolated B2B's. The orion XS is not yet available in isolated form.

Hi just been re reading your reply. Can I confirm with you if I’m understand it right. I can connect the charger’ pos directly to the starter battery and run its negative input to the shunts negative load terminal? Unlike what I did by connecting the charger negative t directly to the starter battery negative?? The shunt display still registered the leisure battery soc increasing??
Thanks again, apologies for delays

 

[Googlebot]

The negative makes no difference where it’s connected as long as it’s a good earth point.

The input positive goes to the starter battery positive. The positive output goes to leisure battery positive.

The shunt is completely separate to the B2B.

If the shunt is close by, you can use the shunt to connect the B2B negative, but make sure you connect it to the load side, not the battery.

Does that help?

If the shunt isn’t registering correctly the loads, it’s normally because you have put a negative direct to the leisure battery rather than through the load side of the shunt. There should be one heavy gauge wire between the shunt and battery negative and nothing else connected.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[AdrianChen]

Hi just been re reading your reply. Can I confirm with you if I’m understand it right. I can connect the charger’ pos directly to the starter battery and run its negative input to the shunts negative load terminal? Unlike what I did by connecting the charger negative t directly to the starter battery negative?? The shunt display still registered the leisure battery soc increasing??
Thanks again, apologies for delays

What you have is fine, the negative post on the starter battery is connected to the chassis, as is your leisure battery negative, so all fine assuming the cables are good for the B2B's 50amp plus whatever else normally runs on them if they are existing cables, as you are with the starter battery negative but I'm sure the vehicles earth strap/cable will be plenty big enough.

There are usually convenient places to mount the unit and keep the cables short particularly on the charge side. This is not so important if you have a Smart Shunt because you can link the shunt to the B2B via a BT "Smart Network" then it will compensate for any voltage drop on the output to leisure battery cable thus providing the battery with an accurate charge profile.

 

[Take2]

The negative makes no difference where it’s connected as long as it’s a good earth point.

The input positive goes to the starter battery positive. The positive output goes to leisure battery positive.

The shunt is completely separate to the B2B.

If the shunt is close by, you can use the shunt to connect the B2B negative, but make sure you connect it to the load side, not the battery.

Does that help?

If the shunt isn’t registering correctly the loads, it’s normally because you have put a negative direct to the leisure battery rather than through the load side of the shunt. There should be one heavy gauge wire between the shunt and battery negative and nothing else connected.

Nearly there,I think…
I ran both pos and negative from starter battery but seems like I could’ve ran just the pos to the charger and then ran the chargers negative to the system/load side of the shunt??
But, yeah just the one earth connection from shunts negative to the leisure negative.
A little disappointed that the dethleffs own b2b (20A) seems to have disappeared. Thought the two would’ve accumulated. But still happy and looking fwd to our 6mth Europe trip as part of our 50th

 

[AdrianChen]

Nearly there,I think…
I ran both pos and negative from starter battery but seems like I could’ve ran just the pos to the charger and then ran the chargers negative to the system/load side of the shunt??
But, yeah just the one earth connection from shunts negative to the leisure negative.
A little disappointed that the dethleffs own b2b (20A) seems to have disappeared. Thought the two would’ve accumulated. But still happy and looking fwd to our 6mth Europe trip as part of our 50th

What type of B2B did you have before, just checking that it wasn't just a split charge relay because if so there maybe a conflict.....

 

[AdrianChen]

Nearly there,I think…
I ran both pos and negative from starter battery but seems like I could’ve ran just the pos to the charger and then ran the chargers negative to the system/load side of the shunt??

Assuming cable sizes are correct it will make little difference to the outcome, but may have been easier I guess!

 

[Googlebot]

My 50 amp and 30 amp only give out 65amps ish. Less when the alternator heats up.

I would expect to see about 45 amps from the Orion going in.

As AdrianChen says though, make sure it is a second B2B as a split charge will completely ruin the output.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Take2]

What type of B2B did you have before, just checking that it wasn't just a split charge relay because if so there maybe a conflict.....

Speaking of conflicts, from what I’ve gleaned doing my research, there’s quite a conflict over whether or not an after market b2b causes the inbuilt one to be inhibited/added to. But like I say I’m gonna be happy having the full 50 instead of the usual 20 which soon drops to single
Figures.
Been good and helpful chatting

 

[AdrianChen]

Speaking of conflicts, from what I’ve gleaned doing my research, there’s quite a conflict over whether or not an after market b2b causes the inbuilt one to be inhibited/added to. But like I say I’m gonna be happy having the full 50 instead of the usual 20 which soon drops to single
Figures.
Been good and helpful chatting

If they are both B2B's then it should be additive.

If the original method of charging the leisure battery from the alternator is not a proper B2B but a split charge relay, then it will diminish the output of the new B2B.

A Split Charge Relay effectively puts the two batteries into parallel, equalising their voltages, at close to the alternator output voltage of 14.2v ish the new B2B detects the leisure battery is now at 14.2v and flips onto float charge (13.5ish), at which voltage not a lot of charging will take place.

If you have a smart alternator then it is most likely a B2B originally.

70+ amps is a reasonable amount to take from a smaller alternator (most likely on an older van), which will get hot, especially if the engine is at idle (traffic jam for eg), with all the lights, radio, wipers etc on, and attempt to reduce its output in some cases by lowering its voltage, thus making the B2B work harder etc.

 

[Take2]

If they are both B2B's then it should be additive.

If the original method of charging the leisure battery from the alternator is not a proper B2B but a split charge relay, then it will diminish the output of the new B2B.

A Split Charge Relay effectively puts the two batteries into parallel, equalising their voltages, at close to the alternator output voltage of 14.2v ish the new B2B detects the leisure battery is now at 14.2v and flips onto float charge (13.5ish), at which voltage not a lot of charging will take place.

If you have a smart alternator then it is most likely a B2B originally.

70+ amps is a reasonable amount to take from a smaller alternator (most likely on an older van), which will get hot, especially if the engine is at idle (traffic jam for eg), with all the lights, radio, wipers etc on, and attempt to reduce its output in some cases by lowering its voltage, thus making the B2B work harder etc.

Thanks I’ll keep an eye on it. Th the vans a 2020 Fiat Should be able find the vans original fuse to inhibit it if needs be

 

[Lenny HB]

Thanks I’ll keep an eye on it. Th the vans a 2020 Fiat Should be able find the vans original fuse to inhibit it if needs be

If your charger/distribution unit is an EBL (Elektrobloc) & you don't have a smart alternator you will probably have a split charge relay which will be inside the EBL. You can disable it by pulling the 50amp fuse by the starter battery.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

If there is no shunt can the negative from the b2b run to the battery negative or negative bus bar rather than the chassis?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[AdrianChen]

If there is no shunt can the negative from the b2b run to the battery negative or negative bus bar rather than the chassis?

Should be fine. Mine runs to the negative busbar, and the output to the positive busbar for the leisure battery - the input runs from the start battery fuse panel under the bonnet via a fuse.

 

[Take2]

If your charger/distribution unit is an EBL (Elektrobloc) & you don't have a smart alternator you will probably have a split charge relay which will be inside the EBL. You can disable it by pulling the 50amp fuse by the starter battery.

Thanks for that Lenny. Will that 50A fuse be one of those midi ones in my original starter battery photo? Wouldn’t happy to know how’s the best way to find out?

 

[Googlebot]

Will be by the starter battery. Red fuse in this holder.

 

[Take2]

Will be by the starter battery. Red fuse in this holder.

View attachment 1000494

Ahh think I saw large plug in fuse on a wire tucked form the side of the battery, thank Mr G