Multiplus II 3000 vs 5000

AdrianChen

AdrianChen

Apr 9, 2022
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So I’m considering doing an upgrade to the vans batteries, charging and inverter, and have a question for the knowledgeable Victron guys.

The idea is to make the van a little more convenient off/on grid so I don’t have to worry and have to reset switches if the hairdryer comes out while I'm making coffee etc.

The basic upgrade would be to add a couple of new batteries to give sufficient output to drive a bigger inverter – which in turn might require more charging capability than we have.

At the moment we have a Multiplus II 3000/120/32. The question is has anybody used two in parallel? Or is there good reason to go with a Multi 5000?

Paralleling 2 3000's would be cheaper since I already have one, but I know the consumption on idle will be higher…..

I have seen the MV equivalents paralleled but not Victron not heard any feedback positive or negative.

So is there a "better" option betwenn the two?
 
Firstly.
A 5000va Multi / Multi II is a special order only but they do exist, just not off the shelf, most of the time people will go for the 5K Quattro, which is a massive unit.

Running 2 in parallel is only a programming exercise, but you have to make sure that battery cables and mains out cables are as close to the same length as possible so the load is balanced between the 2 inverters, I run a pair of 5K multis in parallel in our workshop.

If it is mainly a faster recharge, you are after it might be easier to add another battery charger (y)
 
adi4 said:
Firstly.
A 5000va Multi / Multi II is a special order only but they do exist, just not off the shelf, most of the time people will go for the 5K Quattro, which is a massive unit.

Running 2 in parallel is only a programming exercise, but you have to make sure that battery cables and mains out cables are as close to the same length as possible so the load is balanced between the 2 inverters, I run a pair of 5K multis in parallel in our workshop.

If it is mainly a faster recharge, you are after it might be easier to add another battery charger (y)
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply

I also want some more inverter output, hence this route, space/weight are important as well - Still debating the cost/benefit in my mind!

I didn't realise the 5k ones are special order, might explain the cost though!
 
5000 is pretty tall 70cm+ and you'd preferrably want to install it in upright position with some space above and below to optimize heat dissipation so I'd first check if you have space for it. On some vans it might be easier to find room for 2x 3000 units side by side since they are significantly shorter.
One easily overlooked difference is that 3000 power assist starts from 4A, 5000 6A. For parallel I would check if it actually then means 2x4A = 8A min setting, because this could be an inconvience at times, more so than the 6A minimum for 5000.
 
mikash said:
5000 is pretty tall 70cm+ and you'd preferrably want to install it in upright position with some space above and below to optimize heat dissipation so I'd first check if you have space for it. On some vans it might be easier to find room for 2x 3000 units side by side since they are significantly shorter.
One easily overlooked difference is that 3000 power assist starts from 4A, 5000 6A. For parallel I would check if it actually then means 2x4A = 8A min setting, because this could be an inconvience at times, more so than the 6A minimum for 5000.
Click to expand...
Thank you for that - I will check those points, never considered the power assist......
 
Lenny HB said:
What on earth are you looking at powering with the inverter.?
Click to expand...
Well we tend to use the 230v stuff pretty much at the same time - ie morning the hair gets done, frothing milk, coffee machine/kettle etc, perhaps the fridge & or hot water if its sunny. A lot of which has to be done in sequence. I would like it more like home. With a big inverter there will be no need for all the low wattage, expensive and flimsy "camping" gear because domestic stuff will be viable.

Last September in Devon I had 24hrs with almost everything on batteries, just gas for showers and hob (in my mind that should be diesel / induction). I worked out what that "typical day" used, and how big a battery bank would need to be to give 5 days without ehu or driving. The actual solar we had that day was only about 0.5kw yield (she likes to park under trees and there were clouds). So I came up with a spec. How to do it is where I'm at now, after all batteries are getting cheaper and cheaper and a second multi isn’t a huge cost (unless it’s a 5kv or Quattro) why not consider it?

It's not just the AC side, the DC capacity and charging would need to be tweaked. The big drain being the fridge which would be better off being a condenser type. Would also be nice if gas was used only for the oven so a diesel boiler needed as well, but that will have to wait. Then two 11kg gas tanks would last a long time.....

So a second Orion XS, 2nd MPII inverter(?), then either sell the Ecotree 216AH's I have now and replace with new - or add a couple more Ecotrees, not sure which yet.

Or I could wait for the van converters to catch up…............
 
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Lenny HB said:
Ture I've caused my 3000 va to shut down a few times but I wouldn't think it worth the hassle or expense for the inconvenience it causes occasionally.
Click to expand...
I have a suspicion that ours has been wired so the multi feeds the original 16amp (heating) RCBO, which in turn feeds the 13Amp (Rest of van), so even on EHU the max is 16amp......

Because I know little about AC, I didnt check what was being done.......

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AdrianChen said:
I have a suspicion that ours has been wired so the multi feeds the original 16amp (heating) RCBO, which in turn feeds the 13Amp (Rest of van), so even on EHU the max is 16amp......

Because I know little about AC, I didnt check what was being done.......
Click to expand...
When I rewired my van I left the heater on the incoming mains, big mistake, on a 5 amp hook up with Multiplus set to 5amp, with water heating on 1 kw turn the kettle on which is running through the Multiplus bypass and it tripped the supply MCB as total current from the bollard was the heater plus kettle.
Now rewired so heater is from the inverter output, so now if I draw too much current the inverter will cut in and combine with the mains input.

I left the fridge connected direct to the mains as I don't want it running from the inverter when on auto. I just have to remember to set the Multiplus input to 1 amp less than the bollard to allow for the fridge.
 
funflair said:
It's quite easy to go over 3kw, 2200w kettle and it doesn't leave much headroom for anything else.
Click to expand...
.. especially since the 3000VA is actually specced only 2400W continuous current at 25c, derating as it warms up. So even the 2200W kettle might be pushing it at times.
I am actually musing over the same matter myself. The 5000 model would minimize juggling the watts in your head when using two pots or pans on induction hob and/or airfryer and whatever else. So the gasless cooking is where it'd be most useful for me.
It would also save a bit of energy, being more efficient in the typical >1kW power range than the 3000VA model.
Tthe 220A charging could be useful at times too. Tt would reduce the time you need to keep the multiplus on since it can be a bit noisy or maybe you just have a short time to charge. I would also like to have an additional 50A charger (along with Truma elec elements and 1 x 230V socket for Ecomat in the cabin) wired upstream of the Multiplus for "slow charging" without the need to keep the Multiplus on, because I am a bit allergic to noise.
 
Lenny HB said:
When I rewired my van I left the heater on the incoming mains, big mistake, on a 5 amp hook up with Multiplus set to 5amp, with water heating on 1 kw turn the kettle on which is running through the Multiplus bypass and it tripped the supply MCB as total current from the bollard was the heater plus kettle.
Now rewired so heater is from the inverter output, so now if I draw too much current the inverter will cut in and combine with the mains input.

I left the fridge connected direct to the mains as I don't want it running from the inverter when on auto. I just have to remember to set the Multiplus input to 1 amp less than the bollard to allow for the fridge.
Click to expand...
I think you need to wire an external current sensor for the Multiplus between the grid connection and any upstream loads to make the power assist / guard work correctly. Or a switch to select if you want the loads to bypass multi (if it's off) or to connect to multi AC out (if it's on).
 
Can I just say that if you are planning a high power battery-inverter system you should seriously look at the voltage. House battery-inverter storage systems are usually 48V, and many are high voltage DC on the battery side, that's well over 100V. Any vehicle larger than a panel van has 24V electrics. As a general rule of thumb, if the amps is more than 100A, then you should be reconsidering the voltage.

The motorhome habitation circuits will draw at most 20A total, that's 240W at 12V. If you are using that as a reason to run everything up to 3000W and more at 12V then maybe it's time to reconsider.

The problem with changing the voltage is you have to change the inverter. That's why it's important to consider it at the planning stage. The MPPT controllers usually are OK switching from 12V to 48V if they are Victron types. And you'll need a 48V B2B, and they are hard to find. The batteries can usually just be rejigged to be in series, but obviously you'll need four of them.

In my setup I have about 7kWh (600Ah equivalent) of lithium batteries at 48V, a 48V Multiplus-2 3000 and a Sterling 12V to 48V B2B that takes 70A input from the alternator. All the 240V circuits are powered from this inverter. At present, I don't have any solar.

The 12V habitation circuits run from a single 100Ah lead-acid battery, with the original split charge relay arrangement. I have a Victron BluePower IP65 15A mains charger which is permanently connected to 100Ah battery. It it also plugged into the inverter output, and runs whenever the inverter is running. If the 48V battery-inverter system runs out of power, I still have the 12V 100Ah battery 100% full for the habitation circuits.

I bought a 48V to 12V 20A DC-DC converter to use instead of the charger and 12V battery, but decided to stick with the charger and 12V battery because it gives some redundancy and resilience.

The benefit of using 48V instead of 12V is that the amps at say 2400W drops from 200A at 12V down to 50A at 48V, so all the cables can be 1/4 the thickness (cross-sectional area).
 
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Lenny HB said:
When I rewired my van I left the heater on the incoming mains, big mistake, on a 5 amp hook up with Multiplus set to 5amp, with water heating on 1 kw turn the kettle on which is running through the Multiplus bypass and it tripped the supply MCB as total current from the bollard was the heater plus kettle.
Now rewired so heater is from the inverter output, so now if I draw too much current the inverter will cut in and combine with the mains input.

I left the fridge connected direct to the mains as I don't want it running from the inverter when on auto. I just have to remember to set the Multiplus input to 1 amp less than the bollard to allow for the fridge.
Click to expand...
He did put all the EHU input through the multi, so it could manage the max input properly, and used AC2 output for the stuff that really did need to be EHU only. The mix wasn't quite as I wanted it, but he said he would've needed to do a lot or re-wiring otherwise. Will be reviewing some of that when we upgrade......
So I guess you could bung the fridge onto AC2?

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autorouter said:
Can I just say that if you are planning a high power battery-inverter system you should seriously look at the voltage. House battery-inverter storage systems are usually 48V, and many are high voltage DC on the battery side, that's well over 100V. Any vehicle larger than a panel van has 24V electrics. As a general rule of thumb, if the amps is more than 100A, then you should be reconsidering the voltage.

The motorhome habitation circuits will draw at most 20A total, that's 240W at 12V. If you are using that as a reason to run everything up to 3000W and more at 12V then maybe it's time to reconsider.

The problem with changing the voltage is you have to change the inverter. That's why it's important to consider it at the planning stage. The MPPT controllers usually are OK switching from 12V to 48V if they are Victron types. And you'll need a 48V B2B, and they are hard to find. The batteries can usually just be rejigged to be in series, but obviously you'll need four of them.

In my setup I have about 7kWh (600Ah equivalent) of lithium batteries at 48V, a 48V Multiplus-2 3000 and a Sterling 12V to 48V B2B that takes 70A input from the alternator. All the 240V circuits are powered from this inverter. At present, I don't have any solar.

The 12V habitation circuits run from a single 100Ah lead-acid battery, with the original split charge relay arrangement. I have a Victron BluePower IP65 15A mains charger which is permanently connected to 100Ah battery. It it also plugged into the inverter output, and runs whenever the inverter is running. If the 48V battery-inverter system runs out of power, I still have the 12V 100Ah battery 100% full for the habitation circuits.

I bought a 48V to 12V 20A DC-DC converter to use instead of the charger and 12V battery, but decided to stick with the charger and 12V battery because it gives some redundancy and resilience.
Click to expand...
Yes I did consider 24/48v It's just the depressing feeling caused by the redundant cost of previous kit!
As you say the B2B is more difficult - the next Orion 1400 is 12/24v I think, so maybe the release after that would be 48?

I had 24v on the last boat, but the main difference to the previous 12v version was the cable sizes for chargers, and the big thrusters we had. 120mm for the 12v versions and still a lot of voltage drop especially as the tunnels/props got fouled.

Also watched a 48v version being built/commissioned, that was a bit more involved several components were available only in 12 or 24v (thrusters were specially made then although now available)

So possibly worth looking again at 24v.....

Thanks for the prompt.....


PS the XS 1400 is on the Connects demo product list, but doesn't seem functional yet, but it must be close......

466566326_9053634981347870_8361212228275945328_n.webp
 
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Lenny HB said:
Would that then take into account the shore power limit?
Click to expand...
Yes it does. The problem I found with the AC2 output is that if you switch off the inverter then the AC2 output goes off. Even if you are still plugged into EHU.

But then again there's no reason to switch it off if you're on EHU. Except that at first I found the hum of the inverter irritating at night, and switched it off. That switched the fridge-freezer off (actually it switched over to gas).
 
autorouter said:
Yes it does. The problem I found with the AC2 output is that if you switch off the inverter then the AC2 output goes off. Even if you are still plugged into EHU.

But then again there's no reason to switch it off if you're on EHU. Except that at first I found the hum of the inverter irritating at night, and switched it off. That switched the fridge-freezer off (actually it switched over to gas).
Click to expand...
I think I'll leave it as it is then as the Multiplus is in the garage not far from my head when in bed.
 
I have built 3 installations so far with parallel multiplus ll for fixed installations.
In a van, if you need that much power, it will work expensive. First, is the voltage needs to go up without doubt, and all charging re configured. As autorouter says, this is best done at planing stage. I do kick myself now, for not going 24v at the beginning when I had my chance.
However, there is a work round this IF you dont need the peak all the time, and you can add another inverter on the input. It will act as grid, and set second inverter to ignore grid on settings conditions. I had this arrangement before I changed it to parallel.
The way it works you program a flag assistant to ignore grid on power below xxxW for xx seconds, then another command to follow up allowing grid after xx seconds and power exceeding xxxW. It works and the first inverter stays synchronised without much draw, then it comes online as per settings input. A guy on youtube Adam de Lay has this documented on his channel, as ignore grid options. Also Andy in Australia , at Off grid garage, has this setup and still running with two inverters, one being smaller than the other, all in cascade.

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autorouter said:
Yes it does. The problem I found with the AC2 output is that if you switch off the inverter then the AC2 output goes off. Even if you are still plugged into EHU.

But then again there's no reason to switch it off if you're on EHU. Except that at first I found the hum of the inverter irritating at night, and switched it off. That switched the fridge-freezer off (actually it switched over to gas).
Click to expand...
You can program AC2 out if you have the newer version with 3 relays. Default setting for that is to go out in absence of grid input.

Edit: sorry ignore that, I just re red your message.

You need a separate circuit, wired in parallel from EHU socket to multi and that dedicated socket. That way with ehu connected you get that socket live and inverter can be off.
 
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autorouter said:
Yes it does. The problem I found with the AC2 output is that if you switch off the inverter then the AC2 output goes off. Even if you are still plugged into EHU.

But then again there's no reason to switch it off if you're on EHU. Except that at first I found the hum of the inverter irritating at night, and switched it off. That switched the fridge-freezer off (actually it switched over to gas).
Click to expand...
Raul said:
You can program AC2 out if you have the newer version with 3 relays. Default setting for that is to go out in absence of grid input.

Edit: sorry ignore that, I just re red your message.

You need a separate circuit, wired in parallel from EHU socket to multi and that dedicated socket. That way with ehu connected you get that socket live and inverter can be off.
Click to expand...
Passthrough would be handy - On earlier firmwares I found a way to do it - but that no longer works, so must have been a potentially harmful bug. (You could set the input max current to 0 (it would reset to 1.3 on the display) but go into passthrough so all nice and quiet, but as said it no longer works.......

Did you ever try this node red idea nicked from a Victron forum?

"I'm using Node-RED to set my Multiplus to Passthrough whenever the charge/discharge current is too low for a reasonable efficiency. The flag is called "Disable Charge" and is part of the ESS control node."

I'm trying to avoid Node Red, but if this works......
 
Lenny HB said:
What on earth are you looking at powering with the inverter.?
Click to expand...
My thoughts

We use Ninja Woodfire BBQ, a Ninja air fryer, microwave, induction hob, Dyson hairdryer, two domestic TV's plus a host of other 220vac equipment including ducted air conditioning and our 3000 Victron never breaks into a sweat

Start to pull much more and you will have to start reconsidering the daisy chain wiring to the 13 amp sockets which will not be a ring main, bearing in mind the original 22o volt electrics were designed to run off of an extension lead aka the hook up lead
 
eddie said:
My thoughts

We use Ninja Woodfire BBQ, a Ninja air fryer, microwave, induction hob, Dyson hairdryer, two domestic TV's plus a host of other 220vac equipment including ducted air conditioning and our 3000 Victron never breaks into a sweat

Start to pull much more and you will have to start reconsidering the daisy chain wiring to the 13 amp sockets which will not be a ring main, bearing in mind the original 22o volt electrics were designed to run off of an extension lead aka the hook up lead
Click to expand...
Yes point taken - The current wiring for the van is protected by a 13amp RCBO so thats all that would be possible on the sockets, without re-wiring some of it at least, the heating is on a separate 16amp.

I could consider putting the heater and fridge on a separate inverter since they have their own wiring....

Or maybe I should be looking at lowering the demand - deisel heater, and condenser fridge, rather than higher inverter capacity......

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