Motorhome Electric Tripped again!! Any ideas

[G1969]

Just come back from a walk, and the electric has tripped again!! Fortunately Following a previous incident of draining the batteries I put the multiplus on charger only mode, so this didn’t go into inverter mode. The switch that keeps tripping is the yellow one in the picture below. I had the heating only on 2kw, so nowhere near overloading, any idea please, I presume the yellow switch is faulty and needs replacing??

Thanks

Glyn

 

[WESTY66]

Just come back from a walk, and the electric has tripped again!! Fortunately Following a previous incident of draining the batteries I put the multiplus on charger only mode, so this didn’t go into inverter mode. The switch that keeps tripping is the yellow one in the picture below. I had the heating only on 2kw, so nowhere near overloading, any idea please, I presume the yellow switch is faulty and needs replacing??

Thanks

Glyn View attachment 1001794View attachment 1001796View attachment 1001795

Glyn I’ve got pretty much the same set up and the same marque, same boiler with probably the same components, I’ve also had my heating on 2kw ehu but with my inverter on (I never turn it off) and it just drifts in and out keeping the temps at a constant 8 degrees, and it doesn’t trip anything!
Are you getting a spike or surge of any kind? Other than that I’m afraid I haven’t a clue

 

[G1969]

Glyn I’ve got pretty much the same set up and the same marque, same boiler with probably the same components, I’ve also had my heating on 2kw ehu but with my inverter on (I never turn it off) and it just drifts in and out keeping the temps at a constant 8 degrees, and it doesn’t trip anything!
Are you getting a spike or surge of any kind? Other than that I’m afraid I haven’t a clue

No , Ady , not that I am aware of, on a CAMC site at the moment and other vans seems okay.?? I have PM’d nigel&roger who hopefully may be able to offer some advice please.

 

[Lenny HB]

That is the RCD/RCBO being a Carthago probably the latter.
It is tripping because you have a faulty appliance possible with a leak to earth.
If the only item running mains was the heater so probably the heating element is faulty.

You need to disconnect everything that is wired to the mains and reconnect one item at a time until you find out what is tripping it.

 

[G1969]

That is the RCD/RCBO being a Carthago probably the latter.
It is tripping because you have a faulty appliance possible with a leak to earth.
If the only item running mains was the heater so probably the heating element is faulty.

You need to disconnect everything that is wired to the mains and reconnect one item at a time until you find out what is tripping it.

Thanks Lenny, only fridge and heating connected on 240v system and only a few small things on 12v /usbs etc. so you think it could be either fridge or heating element then is faulty then and not a sensitive switch?

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[Lenny HB]

Mozt lightly a faulty item, start with item 1 the Multiplus as as all the mains passes through that (fridge may not depends how it's wired).
You need to disconnect each item not just switch it off.

 

[G1969]

Mozt lightly a faulty item, start with item 1 the Multiplus as as all the mains passes through that (fridge may not depends how it's wired).
You need to disconnect each item not just switch it off.

Oh no, so it could also be the multiplus?? I do have basic skill set having done a bit of basic wiring from time to time but this is something I may have to leave to the professionals

The only other thing it was doing was charging the batteries, but I set the max output to 16amp, as conscious of not blowing the bollard limit. So was pulling cica 3300w.

 

[G1969]

Just tripped again, but while heating was on 3kw, which has happened in the past - does the alde boiler have separate heating elements? Ie 3x1kw?

 

[RogerIvy]

Hi Glyn

Pretty much everything Lenny said plus I’d add a few comments.

The yellow breaker is a 13A RCBO curve type B.
It can handle 13A*240v=3,120w (or if your system is 230v then 13A*230v=2,990w), so capable of roughly 3kw before the “overload” drops it. From what you’ve said it’s unlikely that you’re exceeding the load limit.
The breaker also drops when there is a difference between positive and neutral exceeding 0.03A (30 milliamp), and this is likely what’s causing the drop…. if the RCBO is not faulty.

We’ve had to replace the odd faulty RCBO, MCB and RCD. Not common but it does happen. To avoid chasing your tail and before doing the tests Lenny has suggested I’d advise you to change the RCBO just in case. It’s the easiest starting point.

Screwfix have a few 16A to choose from, here is a search link:

https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/rcbos/cat7230024?curvetype=b_curve&ratedoperationalcurrentin=16_a

They are not the exact same form factor as your existing RCBO and higher load but they should do the job. You could also go to your closest B&Q or Toolstation. You’ll find very few options for 13A but if it was me, assuming the wires can carry 16A I’d be happy with that in my own van. Your 240v wires are almost certainly 2.5mm which is fine for 16A. You may need to get a small blanking plate as the Screwfix ones are narrower than yours.

I think RS-Online may have one very close to yours:

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rcbos/1833539

 

[Lenny HB]

Screwfix have a few 16A to choose from, here is a search link:
https://www.screwfix.com/c/electric...vetype=b_curve&ratedoperationalcurrentin=16_a

Those are single pole Rogrr, he needs double pole.

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[RogerIvy]

Those are single pole Rogrr, he needs double pole.

You can still use them. Just have to be creative - although they don’t have two poles they do have one pole plus a neutral wire. So effectively two pole but with a different arrangement.

 

[G1969]

Hi Glyn

Pretty much everything Lenny said plus I’d add a few comments.

The yellow breaker is a 13A RCBO curve type B.
It can handle 13A*240v=3,120w (or if your system is 230v then 13A*230v=2,990w), so capable of roughly 3kw before the “overload” drops it. From what you’ve said it’s unlikely that you’re exceeding the load limit.
The breaker also drops when there is a difference between positive and neutral exceeding 0.03A (30 milliamp), and this is likely what’s causing the drop…. if the RCBO is not faulty.

We’ve had to replace the odd faulty RCBO, MCB and RCD. Not common but it does happen. To avoid chasing your tail and before doing the tests Lenny has suggested I’d advise you to change the RCBO just in case. It’s the easiest starting point.

Screwfix have a few 16A to choose from, here is a search link:

https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/rcbos/cat7230024?curvetype=b_curve&ratedoperationalcurrentin=16_a

They are not the exact same form factor as your existing RCBO and higher load but they should do the job. You could also go to your closest B&Q or Toolstation. You’ll find very few options for 13A but if it was me, assuming the wires can carry 16A I’d be happy with that in my own van. Your 240v wires are almost certainly 2.5mm which is fine for 16A. You may need to get a small blanking plate as the Screwfix ones are narrower than yours.

I think RS-Online may have one very close to yours:

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rcbos/1833539

Brilliant thanks Roger, I will look to swap it out, what I am a little confused about is the rating being 13amp, should I keep the multiplus set at 13amp limit , and not at 16, what it is at the moment, certainly for the time being?

 

[RogerIvy]

Brilliant thanks Roger, I will look to swap it out, what I am a little confused about is the rating being 13amp, should I keep the multiplus set at 13amp limit , and not at 16, what it is at the moment, certainly for the time being?

It depends on how it’s wired.
Does the yellow breaker sit between your EHU and the Multiplus? If so either change it to 16A or drop your current limit to 13A.
If you need the yellow breaker to carry 16A then change it to 16A.
….if your wires are thick enough.

 

[G1969]

It depends on how it’s wired.
Does the yellow breaker sit between your EHU and the Multiplus? If so either change it to 16A or drop your current limit to 13A.
If you need the yellow breaker to carry 16A then change it to 16A.
….if your wires are thick enough.

I will have a close look when I get chance Roger, I presume it does ,Nigel did the wiring last March when you did the install for me.

 

[nigelivy]

I will have a close look when I get chance Roger, I presume it does ,Nigel did the wiring last March when you did the install for me.

Hi Glyn, if you’d like us to take a look at it for you, you’re welcome to call in to the workshop.

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[autorouter]

Screwfix have a few 16A to choose from, here is a search link:
https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/rcbos/cat7230024?curvetype=b_curve&ratedoperationalcurrentin=16_a
They are not the exact same form factor as your existing RCBO and higher load but they should do the job. You could also go to your closest B&Q or Toolstation. You’ll find very few options for 13A but if it was me, assuming the wires can carry 16A I’d be happy with that in my own van. Your 240v wires are almost certainly 2.5mm which is fine for 16A. You may need to get a small blanking plate as the Screwfix ones are narrower than yours.

Sorry to say so, but this RCBO in the link is definitely not suitable. It only switches the live pole when tripped, and doesn't switch the neutral pole. It is suitable for UK domestic consumer units, but is not suitable for a motorhome consumer unit. The RCBO needs to be double pole, so that it switches both live and neutral if it trips.

The RCBO in the RS link is suitable. You can also go to a specialist electrical supplier like CEF or TLC. Also some caravan/motorhome accessories shops may stock suitable double pole RCBOs.

 

[autorouter]

although they don’t have two poles they do have one pole plus a neutral wire. So effectively two pole but with a different arrangement.

The neutral wire is there to carry the return current, so that the flow and return can be compared, and the difference calculated. If the difference is greater than 30mA then the breaker trips. But the important thing is, only the live pole switches, the neutral pole is just a pass-through with no switch on it. That is acceptable in UK domestic consumer units, but is not suitable for 'special situations' like a caravan or motorhome, which need switching on both live and neutral poles.

 

[Gromett]

You can still use them. Just have to be creative - although they don’t have two poles they do have one pole plus a neutral wire. So effectively two pole but with a different arrangement.

I agree with autorouter a single pole is not suitable for a motorhome sadly. You cannot trust the hookups on a lot of sites even in the UK.

 

[Gromett]

Just come back from a walk, and the electric has tripped again!! Fortunately Following a previous incident of draining the batteries I put the multiplus on charger only mode, so this didn’t go into inverter mode. The switch that keeps tripping is the yellow one in the picture below. I had the heating only on 2kw, so nowhere near overloading, any idea please, I presume the yellow switch is faulty and needs replacing??

Thanks

Glyn View attachment 1001794View attachment 1001796View attachment 1001795

I have just done a search and think I have found the PKPM2 xPole Dual pole RBCO.
they are just under £200.

My view is it is unlikely to be the cause. It would also have been specced to work with the van.

Rather than buying a replacement just in case. It may be worth buying an Earth Leakage meter.

Then watch a few youtube videos on how to track down earth leakage. The eFixx one is probably the right balance between highly technical and useful for the amateur.

This will allow you to track the exact cause of the leakage.

If you are comfortable taking the front panel off, you can track down down each pair (live/neutral) and test them individually to find what is causing the leakage.

It may be a combination of items.


I will just add one more note. That RCBO appears to be a 300ma leakage device. So this could be a serious leak and will be easy to track with an earth leakage meter.

 

[Cush]

Would the single pole one be an option just to test if it was the breaker, and not a permanent replacement?

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[AdrianChen]

Our S Plus was delivered without the inverter option, and had 2 Eaton brand RCBO's fitted - a 13amp for the Van sockets, and a 16amp for the heating, if the Dometic 1800w inverter option is ordered, there is a 10amp added. The manual shows a sequence of left to right 13/16/10 like yours. Was your Victron an upgrade from a Dometic/Carthago option?

I guess the yellow RCBO was therefore, at least originally, for the sockets and presumably the fridge & Coffee machine if fitted and originally the cbe charger etc. So like Lenny HB I would suspect an earth fault somewhere around those circuits. The heating should be on the 16amp jobby.

I would expect if the Multiplus is a 3000 120 it should be on a 16amp RCBO, rather than 10 though. When we added our Multiplus II, we put in an extra 16amp RCBO, and left the standard 13/16 alone, if yours was an upgrade were they all moved around? Think I would start with using the test buttons when on and off ehu to check what is on each circuit. Out of interest do you have 2 or three 230v cables coming from the bottom of the Multi?

You mention the charger, if the heating was on the 2kw element (I think there is a 1kw and a 2kw), and especially if the ehu was down on voltage, and the Multi's charger popped on that would perhaps get to 16amp.

 

[G1969]

Our S Plus was delivered without the inverter option, and had 2 Eaton brand RCBO's fitted - a 13amp for the Van sockets, and a 16amp for the heating, if the Dometic 1800w inverter option is ordered, there is a 10amp added. The manual shows a sequence of left to right 13/16/10 like yours. Was your Victron an upgrade from a Dometic/Carthago option?

I guess the yellow RCBO was therefore, at least originally, for the sockets and presumably the fridge & Coffee machine if fitted and originally the cbe charger etc. So like Lenny HB I would suspect an earth fault somewhere around those circuits. The heating should be on the 16amp jobby.

I would expect if the Multiplus is a 3000 120 it should be on a 16amp RCBO, rather than 10 though. When we added our Multiplus II, we put in an extra 16amp RCBO, and left the standard 13/16 alone, if yours was an upgrade were they all moved around? Think I would start with using the test buttons when on and off ehu to check what is on each circuit. Out of interest do you have 2 or three 230v cables coming from the bottom of the Multi?

You mention the charger, if the heating was on the 2kw element (I think there is a 1kw and a 2kw), and especially if the ehu was down on voltage, and the Multi's charger popped on that would perhaps get to 16amp.

Very informative Adrian thanks, I will have a good look at trying to ascertain what feeds what. Yes the van did come with the dometic inverter option, and yes the multiplus replaced this. I only seem to have an issue when I put the multiplus upto 16amp, seems okay when reduced to 13and below.

 

[autorouter]

That RCBO appears to be a 300ma leakage device.

It's a bit hard to read on the photo, but it looks like 30mA to me. I think it says '0,03A', so it's a standard leakage current trip device, not a special high-leakage-tolerance device. If so that's better, because a 300mA device doesn't give much protection against electric shock.

 

[Gromett]

It's a bit hard to read on the photo, but it looks like 30mA to me. I think it says '0,03A', so it's a standard leakage current trip device, not a special high-leakage-tolerance device.

Every search for the actual part gave 300ma... I thought it was odd and very high. But this matches the manufacture part number.
The printing on it seems the same.

Unless I am missing something?

 

[Gromett]

It's a bit hard to read on the photo, but it looks like 30mA to me. I think it says '0,03A', so it's a standard leakage current trip device, not a special high-leakage-tolerance device. If so that's better, because a 300mA device doesn't give much protection against electric shock.

You are correct. It seems multiple sellers have the wrong reading.

The actual Eaton datasheet shows it as 30ma

Datasheet - PKPM2-13/2/B/003-A

And I should have checked RS.

108106 PKPM2-13/2/B/003-A | Eaton PKPM2 RCCB, 13A, 2 Pole, 30mA, Type B, 230V | RS

uk.rs-online.com

Good example of why you should always check the manufactures data sheet

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[autorouter]

It seems multiple sellers have the wrong reading.

Par for the course nowadays on a lot of websites.

 

[shaunandjean]

That is the RCD/RCBO being a Carthago probably the latter.
It is tripping because you have a faulty appliance possible with a leak to earth.
If the only item running mains was the heater so probably the heating element is faulty.

You need to disconnect everything that is wired to the mains and reconnect one item at a time until you find out what is tripping it.

Might also be worth including the EHU cable. I had a problem with a loose connection in the plug that kept tripping the system when the weather was wet.

 

[Lenny HB]

Might also be worth including the EHU cable. I had a problem with a loose connection in the plug that kept tripping the system when the weather was wet.

That would trip the site RCD unlikely to trip the one in the van.

 

[Lenny HB]

I guess the yellow RCBO was therefore, at least originally, for the sockets and presumably the fridge & Coffee machine if fitted and originally the cbe charger etc. So like @Lenny HB I would suspect an earth fault somewhere around those circuits. The heating should be on the 16amp jobby.

Carthago don't appear to have a set standard, mine had a 16 amp RCBO on the input with the output feeding the heater and the 13 amp MCB which feeds everthing else.

 

[AdrianChen]

Very informative Adrian thanks, I will have a good look at trying to ascertain what feeds what. Yes the van did come with the dometic inverter option, and yes the multiplus replaced this. I only seem to have an issue when I put the multiplus upto 16amp, seems okay when reduced to 13and below.

From memory (highly fallible) we removed one of the two CBE chargers that was OE fitted. This left a spare white socket/plug that would be on the 13amp breaker - wonder if that is the cause if its found a way of touching something it shouldn't.....

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