Motorcycle Category Lost from Licence - any advice?

[Kayak Kid]

I recently reached 70 years of age and followed the DVLA procedures for a replacement driving licence to include my C1 category to drive vehicles over 3500kg. My Motorhome is plated at 4250kg.

However, on receiving my new card licence, my motorcycle category allowing my to ride any engine size was not included! I have been riding motorcycles for some 50 years up to 1800cc and still ride safely with a current maximum NCD on my motorcycle insurance.

I have challenged this by letter to the DVLA indicating the date I sat my motorcycle test and the test centre involved. At that time licences were issued by the city councils and mine was Glasgow City Council. The category was shown on my original paper licence which I had from its issue to me many years ago and which I returned to the DVLA with my recent application (granted not in the best of condition).

The DVLA has written back to me stating that they have no record of me having this category and that it would be in breach of the relevant legislation if I operated a vehicle for which I am not licensed.

I have heard and read that this has been a fairly common issue - but would welcome any advice on how I might take the matter forward.

 

[suavecarve]

I ve heard of this before but not got any experience, so just thoughts.

1) Presuming you dont have a photocopy of your original
2) As you know the date and location of passing your test, Glasgow City Council may have records and there may be an archivist there you can try to contact
3) The test centre may have records going back to that date ?
4) Although not proof of having passed a test, previous insurance documents, photographs of being on obviously large motorbikes (on a road), newspaper clippings, quoting Paul Olsen (google) from the 1970s
5) I believe that Insurance companies can check their records, and believe that Insurance companies can check validity of licences to tell you that they cant sell you an insurance for a motorbike as you dont have the licence. Might be worth checking if they do this as they may be able to say that x years ago for y years on the trot you had a licence according to records they have which were cross checked against DVLA records
6) I dont suppose you have been given a HOR/T1 (7 day wonder) in the last 7 years where the Officer ticked 1, 3 and 4 and "Record details" if it were given to you whilst driving any vehicle or "Check Details" whilst you were riding a motorbike according to your licence at the time. Similarly, were you caught speeding on a motorbike and you got 3 points but were not charged/summonsed for driving otherwise in accordance with your licence and/or no insurance ?
7) Did you have to produce your licence to work in order to drive their vehicles or be checked by anyone and did they take photocopies which may be on your personnel record ?

Once armed with all that information (I would suggest the more the merrier) and having read this https://www.ombudsman.org.uk/making...rcyclist-wrongly-denied-right-driving-licence and send off to "ODL Casework Team, DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1ZZ" I would not quote the Paul Olsen case in the first instance as they will be acutely aware of it and request a "Subject access request" at the same time as this would cause them an amount of work going through microfiches for your original documents going back to the year dot. If no joy, then your MP is the way to go with all that information.

Best of luck and if I think of anything else I ll bung it up here

 

[fishplug]

Unfortunately too late to help you Kayak Kid, but if anyone else is about to surrender a licence for this sort of purpose it's prudent to check what they do have on record for you while you still have your driving licence in your posession.

Enter details - View your driving licence information - GOV.UK

www.viewdrivingrecord.service.gov.uk

If the record on there doesn't match what you have then you still have a valid document which shows your entitlements.

If it does match, then print it to PDF which should put a date/time stamp on it so you have proof of what they had on record for you before you sent your licence off.

I've heard that you can also apply for a paid Certificate of Entitlement by calling the DVLA which apparently only cost £5-10 which I would probably do as well given the low cost. https://www.gov.uk/contact-the-dvla

 

[The Coops]

Have you still got the paper license or the part for endorsements? Your insurance company may have at sometime asked for a copy of your license or have you ever had to surrender your license for it to be endorsed? In which case there should be a copy knocking around in records

 

[bobnick]

We keep a colour photo copy of all legal doc for occaisions just like this. Even better if the copies are attested.
Never had issues renewing mine, i'm 75 (but a young 75)

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[Silver-Fox]

We keep a colour photo copy of all legal doc for occaisions just like this. Even better if the copies are attested.
Never had issues renewing mine, i'm 75 (but a young 75)

I did read some years ago DVLA will not accept photo copies of your driving license.

I also read a good few years ago a Police Motorcyclist who was retired applied for renewal and the license came back without the motorcycle entitlement.
He struggled with the DVLA as well.

I’m not suggesting anyone does this but you can apply for renewal without returning the old document.

Kayak Kid i think you will have a fight on your hands.

 

[David and Sally]

Have a look at Section 88 RTA.

That section allows driving if you have an application in at the DVLA (signed for) for a vehicle you have had a valid license for and you have not been banned.

It does throw the onus on you to be sure of your claim but assuming you have a copy of the old license I think this may help until they get their knickers untwisted. Have a good read of the wording of Sec 88 though.

 

[Trevor Wbm]

It's a bit late for the OP, but for those approaching 70yrs, it may be prudent to use the Gov website to print off your license details prior to starting the process of renewing your licence.

https://www.viewdrivingrecord.service.gov.uk/driving-record/licence-number

 

[pappajohn]

I’m not suggesting anyone does this but you can apply for renewal without returning the old

I NEVER send my old licence back at renewal for this very reason.
They can't argue with what's printed on the licence.

 

[Red Sonja]

I did read some years ago DVLA will not accept photo copies of your driving license.

I also read a good few years ago a Police Motorcyclist who was retired applied for renewal and the license came back without the motorcycle entitlement.
He struggled with the DVLA as well.

I’m not suggesting anyone does this but you can apply for renewal without returning the old document.

Kayak Kid i think you will have a fight on your hands.

We did not return ours for this very reason.

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[Richard n Ann]

Didn't return mine either

 

[Geistguy]

Having just renewed my licence for the 3rd time since turning 70 I always renew online as early as possible, your old licence does not need to be returned immediately and I have always returned mine just after the new licence start date, my birthday. This gives plenty time to check all categories are correct, including my full motorbike licence.

 

[Richard n Ann]

It's been happening years, I worked with a guy in the 1990s that it happened to, fortunately he was old and wasn't bothered.

 

[Lenny HB]

Having just renewed my licence for the 3rd time since turning 70 I always renew online as early as possible, your old licence does not need to be returned immediately and I have always returned mine just after the new licence start date, my birthday. This gives plenty time to check all categories are correct, including my full motorbike licence.

You can't do that if you want to keep your C1.

 

[stevewagner]

It happened to my friend some years back. We both had to go to a solicitor (me as a witness), to sign an affidavit swearing that he had held a full motorcycle license.

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[Geistguy]

You can't do that if you want to keep your C1.

I opted not to keep my C1 but thanks for reminding others.

 

[TrudeandDall]

Unfortunately too late to help you Kayak Kid, but if anyone else is about to surrender a licence for this sort of purpose it's prudent to check what they do have on record for you while you still have your driving licence in your posession.

Enter details - View your driving licence information - GOV.UK

www.viewdrivingrecord.service.gov.uk

If the record on there doesn't match what you have then you still have a valid document which shows your entitlements.

If it does match, then print it to PDF which should put a date/time stamp on it so you have proof of what they had on record for you before you sent your licence off.

I've heard that you can also apply for a paid Certificate of Entitlement by calling the DVLA which apparently only cost £5-10 which I would probably do as well given the low cost. https://www.gov.uk/contact-the-dvla

Thanks for this info - very timely as my licence is due for renewal in April as I will have reached 70.
I now have my licence photocopied and in saved in pdf, along with a printout and saved pdf of my records.
Interestingly, I have a Class 1 HGV (C+E) which I passed in the late 70's, and used to earn my living for 35 years. But I did not renew the HGV category at 65 as I had no intention of ever driving and artic again and taking a HGV medical every year just to keep this category on my licence was a complete waste of time and money. As far as I am aware I never loose the HGV entitlement and if I passed a medical it would be reinstated - however there is no mention of this on my records that I downloaded today. Have I been done by the DVLA?

 

[fishplug]

I'm not really sure how the HGV entitlement works but from what I just looked up online it seems that from 65 you need to do an annual medical and have a CPC to keep an 'active' HGV entitlement.

However, it also seems that it doesn't ever technically 'expire' but rather it 'lapses' which means you could potentially apply for it to be re-activated.

Sounds like a bit of a minefield but if it's not showing on the DVLA online entitlements but it does show on your licence then it might be prudent to call DVLA to find out what's what.

If it is something you might want to use again in the future and it's lost from your renewed licence then you'd probably have to sit your test again.

Again - this is outside of my field of knowledge / expertise but I'm sure there are a few professional drivers on here that will be able to give you a better answer.

 

[lebowski]

This happened to me about 30 odd years ago, when there was a spate of DVLA making mistakes on licence changes. As I recall some people even got HGV entitlement when changing their address on a provisional!
First I knew was when I got stopped for speeding on the M6 on the way to the IOM TT. I received a producer and went to my local station where they told me I didn't have a licence to ride my GPZ900.
Long story short, DVLA wouldn't accept a photocopy and the test centre only kept records for 7 years. I went to court, pleaded my case (the bike was fully insured with many years NCB and I had even been employed as a motorcycle courier) The extremely understanding magistrates let me off with a fine for speeding. I retook my test and now never surrender my licence when it's time to renew. I always 'lose' my licence....
Sorry to say, unIess you can find an old licence or pass cert, I very much doubt there is anything you can do but retake your test.

 

[Kayak Kid]

Thanks for all of the inputs and suggestions. Will consider all and move to my next stage!

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[Dave and Jen]

They took my m/c licence off at replacement a few years ago, I wasn't bothered because I have a stiff left leg and my left arm is amputated above the elbow would make riding on a bit difficult.
However, the last time I applied for a replacement they put my entitlement back on!!!!
Didn't bother telling them as it would only cause more problems (probably)
They do know about my condition and haven't put any restrictions on my car licence.
Cheers, Dave

 

[JockandRita]

I have heard and read that this has been a fairly common issue -

Too common sadly.

I also read a good few years ago a Police Motorcyclist who was retired applied for renewal and the license came back without the motorcycle entitlement.
He struggled with the DVLA as well.

It has happened to serving Police Traffic Officers, and no matter how much their Chief Constable made a fuss with DVLA, the Officers had to retake their Motorcycle Test. DVLA are not fit for purpose.

I’m not suggesting anyone does this but you can apply for renewal without returning the old document.

I do it every year when renewing my HGV & PSV. I don't destroy the previous licence until I have scrutinised the new one for categories and dates..........and the licence (not the category), expiry date at 4B on the front of the card. Very important is that one.

You can't do that if you want to keep your C1.

You can Lenny. You either tell DVLA via a note in with your application, that you are required to retain your licence for car rental in the EU, or for proof of ID for your employer's customer delivery access points. Been there and done that.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[fishplug]

my left arm is amputated above the elbow would make riding on a bit difficult.

You've not seen Chris Ganley race then?

Not sure I'd have the courage to do that though. I found it difficult enough getting back on the bike after smashing up my shoulder and ribs. I'd got covid in Dec 19 before people were really talking about it and had just got over the incessant coughing before my accident. I can't imagine the pain of having that sort of cough and broken ribs at the same time. My convalescence meant I'd already had six weeks of isolating before we were told to isolate...

They're still sore sometimes now all these years later.

 

[Lenny HB]

You can Lenny. You either tell DVLA via a note in with your application, that you are required to retain your licence for car rental in the EU, or for proof of ID for your employer's customer delivery access points. Been there and done that.

I thought you could only keep your C1 by applying by post wtin D2 & D4.

 

[Dave and Jen]

You've not seen Chris Ganley race then?

Not sure I'd have the courage to do that though. I found it difficult enough getting back on the bike after smashing up my shoulder and ribs. I'd got covid in Dec 19 before people were really talking about it and had just got over the incessant coughing before my accident. I can't imagine the pain of having that sort of cough and broken ribs at the same time. My convalescence meant I'd already had six weeks of isolating before we were told to isolate...

They're still sore sometimes now all these years later.

I've not seen that bloke, but have seen a couple of programmes where an ex- army chap adapts bikes for disabled people.
At 77 I don't think I'll bother now, even though I would love to ride again- Mrs wouldn't be too pleased either!!
Dave