Making the change from lead acid to lithium - a thread with pictures

[bluemh]

Hi guys. Thanks for all your replies.
With respect to Isolating the EBL 30 charger (#227 & #238), I have now found the Wago connections, tucked in behind the batteries.
If you isolate the EBL 30 from EHU you will loose the EHU connection indicator on the Shaudt display panel, which is needed to confirm that the supply is OK & has not tripped out which can happen occasionally on some sites. I suppose it is possible to plug in a simple led night light into a mains socket to display when you are connected to EHU. When fitting the isolation switch is it best to switch both the positive & negative poles ?

Whist both the B2B & solar units should have temperature sensors to inhibit charging below 0 deg C. Are we relying solely on the Li Battery's BMS to Inhibit charging via EHU below 0 deg C. There may be occasions when, during winter storage, I need to charge the starter battery, by EHU. Thus Ideally the need to isolate the EBL charger to the Hab battery separately from the starter battery, is this possible.
I realise it is possible to fit a separate lithium charger for the Hab battery, but this is added cost, complication & most critically extra weight.

Can’t you just remove the 20A fuse labelled Internes Lademodul to disable the EBL30 leisure battery charging?

 

[bluemh]

Hi guys. Thanks for all your replies.
With respect to Isolating the EBL 30 charger (#227 & #238), I have now found the Wago connections, tucked in behind the batteries.
If you isolate the EBL 30 from EHU you will loose the EHU connection indicator on the Shaudt display panel, which is needed to confirm that the supply is OK & has not tripped out which can happen occasionally on some sites. I suppose it is possible to plug in a simple led night light into a mains socket to display when you are connected to EHU. When fitting the isolation switch is it best to switch both the positive & negative poles ?

Whist both the B2B & solar units should have temperature sensors to inhibit charging below 0 deg C. Are we relying solely on the Li Battery's BMS to Inhibit charging via EHU below 0 deg C. There may be occasions when, during winter storage, I need to charge the starter battery, by EHU. Thus Ideally the need to isolate the EBL charger to the Hab battery separately from the starter battery, is this possible.
I realise it is possible to fit a separate lithium charger for the Hab battery, but this is added cost, complication & most critically extra weight.

Can’t you just remove the 20A fuse labelled Internes Lademodul to disable the EBL30 leisure battery charging?

 

[Googlebot]

Can’t you just remove the 20A fuse labelled Internes Lademodul to disable the EBL30 leisure battery charging?

Yes, but then it wouldn’t charge the cab battery.

I just put up with the fact I can’t charge when it’s cold, 30 minutes of the heating on soon sorts that.

You can fit a battery master to maintain the engine battery. I fitted a plug for a ctek battery charger by the Hab batteries but it is connected to engine only. This means I can use a mains charger just on the engine battery for the exact problem you describe.
I also fitted a battery master so all connections were handy.

 

[Pausim]

Can’t you just remove the 20A fuse labelled Internes Lademodul to disable the EBL30 leisure battery charging?

Yes. That is what Udo Lang at Schaudt suggested for my EBL29. Here is what he said.

“the best would be to mount the sterling charger directly to the battery you like to charge.
The mains connection please leave at the EBL. Just remove the 20A fuse at the EBL´ s front side. This is the fuse “internal charger” (internes Ladegerät).
Then the indication light at the panel will shine when the 230V is there and the starter battery will get a fload charging. The connection to the leisure battery is cut.
Best Regards
Udo.”

 

[WildBunch]

Lenny HB, Yes Point taken. I am hoping the new MPP solar regulator will prove to be better than the existing PWM unit currently fitted. I had a lot of trouble last winter with the starter battery not holding charge, in spite of being connected to the solar panel. It turned out there was a faulty cell. I replaced the battery in February this year. I wonder if the bad cell was caused by the starter battery being over charged on the AGM setting when on EHU. The van was supplied with a lead starter battery & a AGM Hab battery by Hymer, thus the mismatched charging profiles.

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[WildBunch]

Hi guys, again thanks for all the replies & comments. Ref #225 I am going for option 2 & bypassing the EBL to charge the Hab battery.
I am trying to access if I understand enough to undertake the project my self.
I attach 2 scans :-
1) What I think is the existing EBL 30 / charger setup.
2) My proposed layout based on Votronic MPP 165 solar regulator, Votronic VCC1212-30 B2B & a Victron smart shunt.

My proposed layout is based on the relevant manuals. I am not quite sure if I have the correct layout of the fuses at the positive connection to the habitation battery.
I recognize the only way of charging the starter battery is by the alternator or solar. I would be grateful for any comments.

 

[Pausim]

Hi guys, again thanks for all the replies & comments. Ref #225 I am going for option 2 & bypassing the EBL to charge the Hab battery.
I am trying to access if I understand enough to undertake the project my self.
I attach 2 scans :-
1) What I think is the existing EBL 30 / charger setup.
2) My proposed layout based on Votronic MPP 165 solar regulator, Votronic VCC1212-30 B2B & a Victron smart shunt.

My proposed layout is based on the relevant manuals. I am not quite sure if I have the correct layout of the fuses at the positive connection to the habitation battery.
I recognize the only way of charging the starter battery is by the alternator or solar. I would be grateful for any comments.

As I read your proposed wiring you are connecting the B2B directly to the leisure and engine batteries without disabling the original charging arrangements, which will create a loop. The EBL30 will still be connecting the 2 batteries, bypassing the B2B and whichever circuit has the higher voltage will back feed the one with the lower voltage.

As an example your B2B may be trying to charge your leisure battery at 14.6V and your alternator is putting out 14.2V for the engine battery. However because the EBL is still linking the 2 batteries the 14.6V will flow back from the leisure battery to the engine battery. This means the B2B is trying to charge both batteries and also trying to power itself. The B2B will not be able to monitor the state of charge of the leisure battery and the ECU will have no idea what is happening to the engine battery.

Your 30A B2B should be well within the capacity of your EBL so my suggestion would be to use the second wiring diagram in the Votronic manual instead of the standard one. This is probably easier than your proposed route and avoids the dreaded loop. It is simply a matter of disconnecting the engine battery connection at the EBL and using this as the IN feed to the B2B, you then just add a new connection from the B2B OUT back to the vacated connection on the EBL.

 

[WildBunch]

Hi Pausim, thanks for looking at my proposal & responding. I initially was going to use the connections as the Votronic plan as you suggest.
Yes, it is much simpler circuit & you can reuse most of all the existing wiring and fuses. It also charges the starter battery. I know Googlebot used the method you suggested. But I have been persuaded by Lenny HB not to do so, as others have had problems with the ELB charging relay contacts. The method I am trying to use is the Votronic "Standard connection Plan" also in the manual. The idea is to take the higher charging current away from the EBL. The EBL is considered a bit fragile by other "experts", who professionally repair them.
It seems there is no right answer.
Also if you by pass the EBL it is possible to use a higher current output B2B (say 50 amps) without overloading the ELB. The existing wiring & fuses will need to be beefed-up to handle the higher current.
I am not sure as to how to break the loop you mention.

 

[Googlebot]

Are you adding a shunt? If so you can check the current from the EBL with it wired as I did. If this proves insufficient it’s still really easy to do it your proposed way and you just put the wires back.

I get 29 amps from my 30amp B2B which is near enough for me.

 

[paddymcc]

I agree with Pausim re using the B2B to feed through the EBL. My EBL 101 is ok for up to 50A and I have connected my Votronic 1250 through it without problems.
I notice on diagram 2 that you don't show where the D+signal from the alternator/ starter battery goes. I presume that it goes to the EBL and that you will run the D+to the B2B from this?
Also shouldn't the inverter negative wire be connected between the negative of the leisure battery and the shunt so that the shunt records this current?

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[WildBunch]

Hi Guys thanks for your reply's
paddymcc.
Yes I will be using the D+ connection which loops through the EBL. I think I have the negative wiring for the Inverter correct. All negatives will connect to the Shunt's load Minus via a bus bar.
Perhaps I can initially try using wiring through the EBL as suggested by Googlebot & Pausim.
As I am only fitting 1 X 110/120 Ah lithium battery I think the VCC1212-30 will suffice. Thus I can reuse the existing wiring & fuses. Hopefully 30 amps will not cause the EBL any problems.
Ref the solar controller, the Votronic MPP165 is OK for the existing 150 watt solar panel that is currently fitted. I am wondering if I should use the MPP250 instead. 1) It maybe in the future that higher output panels at the same weight & size become available. Thus the need for a larger unit. 2) The MPP250 also comes with a feature (not on the MPP165), that can switch the "AES" fridge to battery operation when sufficient solar is available. Is this a feature that I can use on my Hymer fitted with the large 160 L Dometic fridge. Can this be wired via the ELB 30

 

[Lenny HB]

The MPP250 also comes with a feature (not on the MPP165), that can switch the "AES" fridge to battery operation when sufficient solar is available. Is this a feature that I can use on my Hymer fitted with the large 160 L Dometic fridge. Can this be wired via the ELB 30

Hymer wire the fridge so it can run of the hab batteries so you don't need to do anything for it to work apart from connecting the AES output on the controller to the S+ on the fridge.

I don't know what fridge you have ours is an 8505 and the dumb firmwear has Solar as the first source of power. This often causes the fridge to switch to 12v when on EHU.
What happens is the controller sees the battery fully charged so outputs an AES signal and the fridge switches to 12v regardless of mains being available.
I initially fitted a switch inline with the AES wire, then replaced it with a mains relay, so when on EHU it disconnects the controller AES to fridge connection.

 

[WildBunch]

Hi. Lenny HB
Not sure of our model number, I will have to check, however sounds useful. On that basis I will go for the MPP 250. Do you know if the S+ connection on the fridge is already wired out to any where else more accessible than the back of the fridge ?

 

[Lenny HB]

Hi. Lenny HB
Not sure of our model number, I will have to check, however sounds useful. On that basis I will go for the MPP 250. Do you know if the S+ connection on the fridge is already wired out to any where else more accessible than the back of the fridge ?

Providing your fridge is 8000 series or higher it should have the S+ terminal. It's only on the back of the fridge, you only need to get a small wire to it as it is only a signal wire.

 

[Googlebot]

Providing your fridge is 8000 series or higher it should have the S+ terminal. It's only on the back of the fridge, you only need to get a small wire to it as it is only a signal wire.

I just took the vent off mine, the panel is right there. Whole thing including the cable run took about 30 minutes.

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[WildBunch]

Hi Thanks.
I love all this free help.

 

[paddymcc]

I just took the vent off mine, the panel is right there. Whole thing including the cable run took about 30 minutes.

On my slightly older fridge, 7000 series, it was on top of the fridge behind the control panel. I had to move the fridge forward to get at it so took a while longer.

 

[WildBunch]

Hi sorry guys as I am back tracking a bit.
Ref #42 & #43 with regard to crimping the larger cables. In the past I used the cold chisel & hammer method to crimp the terminal then solder the cable & terminal. This tends to burn the insulation a little, but I use a bit of heat shrink insulation over the joint. I was talking to our local boat chandler, who make up a lot of cables for boats. The battery cables for use on boats must be soldered to comply with the boat safety scheme. Any reason as to why we not solder cables.
Victron shunts.
I think I have seen a previous thread regards the different models of shunt from Victron. I can't find it. I am trying to understand the practical differences between the BMV 700 with its dedicated display & blue tooth, with the newer smart shunt with blue tooth but no dedicated display.

 

[Lenny HB]

Ref #42 & #43 with regard to crimping the larger cables. In the past I used the cold chisel & hammer method to crimp the terminal then solder the cable & terminal.

Do the job properly get yourself a hydraulic crimp tool they are only £25.
You should never solder crimped terminals.

Victron shunts.
I think I have seen a previous thread regards the different models of shunt from Victron. I can't find it. I am trying to understand the practical differences between the BMV 700 with its dedicated display & blue tooth, with the newer smart shunt with blue tooth but no dedicated display

I have a BMV 700 & I forked out another £45 for the Bluetooth module, I hardly ever use the display. The bluetooth app gives so much more information and makes it a lot easier to set up.
On the Smart Shunt you can monitor the starter battery voltage as well, you can do that on the BMV712 but that is a lot more expensive than the BMV700.
The BMV700/712 do have a relay you set up to trigger for various functions.

 

[Pausim]

The battery cables for use on boats must be soldered to comply with the boat safety scheme. Any reason as to why we not solder cables.

The Boat Safety Scheme allows soldered or pressure crimped connections.

3.6	main leads fitted with soldered or pressure crimped connectors
	starter motor leads fitted with soldered or pressure crimped connectors

The American Boat & Yacht Council Standards exclude solder as the sole means of electrical connection for wire terminations.

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[WildBunch]

Hi All
Becoming committed now, as I have just ordered the hydraulic crimping tool.
I am going with the attached wiring layout, based on the Votronic VCC1212-30, MPP 250 & Victron smart shunt.
If the EBL 30 relay contacts do prove to be a problem, I can wire the B2B direct as per my previous wiring layout.
Thanks to all for your helpful comments.
It will take a while to get all the necessary components. As most of the work will be done outside I will have to wait for some dry weather to undertake the work.
By the way I have the Dometic 8505 model fridge, so intend to wire the AES output from the solar controller. Hopefully I can find an east route from the back of the fridge to the battery/ EBL area which is located under the dinette seat

 

[Googlebot]

Start a thread and pictures as you go.

Just with the fuse to your inverter, 110amps might be a bit low for a 2000watt load. It will pull circa 170amps at full load.

I would use a 200amp fuse to take surge into account.

 

[WildBunch]

Hi . Googlebot. Thanks for looking at my wiring plan.
The inverter is too big for our needs. HWMBO uses a 250 watt hair wand & I use the E bike charger. But that is the one we have. If I need to change it, I would get a 1200 watt like yours. That will save a little weight also.
I was wondering about the size selection of the Inverter fuse. I have been looking at the specified maximum discharge current for the Eco tree lithium 110ah battery is 110 Amp max ? Thus my selection of the fuse.
Are you happy to tell me which Exsis I model you have.

 

[Googlebot]

Of course, I have an Exsis I 578.

Good point about the battery discharge rate as well, I would make sure the fuse is accessible as it might be a pain otherwise.

 

[WildBunch]

Hi Just a thought, Has anyone noticed a increase in fuel consumption after fitting a B2B, due to the higher current going to the batteries.
You don't get "out for nowt" ?

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[Googlebot]

I didn’t.

 

[jongood]

Hi Just a thought, Has anyone noticed a increase in fuel consumption after fitting a B2B, due to the higher current going to the batteries.
You don't get "out for nowt" ?

Probably irrelevant. Fuel is rarely the biggest expense of motorhome ownership because the milages are relatively low. Depreciation maintenance and projects........

 

[WildBunch]

Probably the same as turning on the headlights.

 

[Rosie and David]

Hi Gogglebot, I have followed your thread with interest as I am sure have many others. I have just been down to the MH and taken all the panels off the seats with a view of fitting my Votronic B2B. All looks straight forward and doable but my question is re your post #76 about the D+ wire. Is it Block 2 pin 3? There are a number of yellow wires and I don't want to cut the wrong one tomorrow. Mine is an EBL 29. Picture attached. These also go into a connecting block with an open ended wire like the one in your picture

 

[Googlebot]

It is indeed that one.

Please do check though with a multimeter just in case. I have just taken a picture, block 2 third wire down.

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