Lithium vs Lead Acid. Some Facts !

Lenny HB said:
That was my point if the battery is too low for the heating to work your stuffed.
In practice you would probably go for a drive.
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If you set the system up right the heat pad would automatically switch on to ensure the batteries were able to take a charge
 
Mine are great on my power tools :D

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Lenny HB said:
If they were mining Lithium in the EU it would have been banned years ago.
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Banned? who is? what did Lithium do to get himself banned? what was he charged with .....

is it a terminal ban ?

:giggle: :giggle:
 
My 100Ah lithium battery can be charged at 50A above freezing, at 10A between 0ºC and -10ºC and at 5A between -10ºC and - 20ºC. It does not get cold when the van is in use. The only time it might get cold is when the van is standing in storage but since lithium batteries do not lose charge it would be capable of running the heating for several hours.

If extremely cold weather is a problem where you live Relion make a low temperature (LT) lithium battery which when it is too cold to charge diverts the charging current to internal heating elements until it is up to temperature.
 
Might even be worth watching the video ! One of the many interesting facts revealed in this vid is the Lead Acid battery only performed 20 cycles when cycled to 30% discharge. The lead crystal fell of a cliff (I know that's 2 facts but if you got this far you deserve a bonus).

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Its a good video, and very helpful. If you can afford the initial outlay, Lithium does look like a good option ....especially adding in recharge speed and weight benefits as well.

But all this specific video confirms is that if you plan to abuse your batteries, Lithium outperforms all other types

I understand why they abused them - he mentions fleet vans with inverters fitted, misguided users etc - but even from my very limited knowledge, taking them repeatedly to 10.5V and recharging at 20A is pretty serious abuse

What would be helpful to see as a follow-up, is how the lower cost (Lead Acid/AGM/Gel etc) batteries perform if they're not abused? Appreciate the Lithium would still perform excellently, but what would the lower cost batteries do say if taken to 50% and recharged correctly?
 
Ernesto said:
What would be helpful to see as a follow-up, is how the lower cost (Lead Acid/AGM/Gel etc) batteries perform if they're not abused? Appreciate the Lithium would still perform excellently, but what would the lower cost batteries do say if taken to 50% and recharged correctly?
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Agree with that 100% but as he says at the front end of the video the market place is full of misleading and lies when it comes to leisure battery performance, particularly the number of cycles and depth of discharge being quoted. Just confirms the state of the industry. He did however, say later on that if Lead Acid batteries were only partially discharged they would last a lot longer than his test. For me, it was informative on how quickly a lead Acid can be killed off when discharged below 50%. Lithium would be great if your solar power and charging system were set up for it and you were spending an enormous amount of time wilding.
 
Ernesto said:
What would be helpful to see as a follow-up, is how the lower cost (Lead Acid/AGM/Gel etc) batteries perform if they're not abused? Appreciate the Lithium would still perform excellently, but what would the lower cost batteries do say if taken to 50% and recharged correctly?
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Hi the video has been around for a while and was originally post on MHFun about 18 months ago, there will be no follow up as it showcasing the benefits of Lithium batteries and no apologies are made about the abuse of the lead acid.

However, in the real world most people due to either not knowing any better, or genuine ignorance as to how batteries work and should be charged/discharged will abuse batteries badly. Some people of course simply don't give a toss and then blame everything and everybody else when things go wrong. The trick is working out which category people fall into to see if you can help them, however: as some one that owns a business that sells batteries to the public I can honestly say that I hate selling conventional leisure batteries to the public!

Imagine, some one wanders in and asks if we can check their leisure batteries (why on earth would they feel that they should make an appointment? :winky:

"OK where are they?" We ask.

I dunno I've only had the van three years" is the reply :unsure:

"So you've never checked them in three years?":rolleyes:

So we find the leisure battery and its knackered, probably not even new when the motorhome was purchased.

"I want the cheapest one please, I'm thinking of changing the van (Why is it when ever anyone has to make a distressed purchase (one they have to buy) they are always "Thinking of changing the van?"

So! the cheapest one, which would be lead acid, and with us guessing that the chances of it ever being maintained are virtually nil, and that this will be the bloke that phones from Spain in 12 months time screaming shouting and threatening physical violence and We've "Fcked up his holiday and he wants compensation" as he "knows his rights" is the probable outcome of any transaction!

Hence the conversation goes like this normally: "I'm staying on the campsite next door and want my battery tested!"

"Halfords Sir! Absolutely great, they will test your battery, sell you a really cheap on and fit it for you for a tenner! and they are just down the road!"
 
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All good and valid points ... If I were in your shoes, faced with the choice of either running detailed customer education courses in order to sell the cheapest batteries going, or simply refuse to fit anything other than Lithium, I think I'd opt for the latter ...:)(y)

I will probably swap to Lithium at some point in the not too distant future. I have a basic understanding I think, of how to treat batteries and enough funds to afford them.

So its just engineering curiosity for me - be good to see the other side of the coin so to speak - and whats possible from the cheaper ones with some care. I guess the answer is to run mine for another year or so and I'll find out, but it won't be very scientific

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Ernesto said:
All good and valid points ... If I were in your shoes, faced with the choice of either running detailed customer education courses in order to sell the cheapest batteries going, or simply refuse to fit anything other than Lithium, I think I'd opt for the latter ...:)(y)

I will probably swap to Lithium at some point in the not too distant future. I have a basic understanding I think, of how to treat batteries and enough funds to afford them.

So its just engineering curiosity for me - be good to see the other side of the coin so to speak - and whats possible from the cheaper ones with some care. I guess the answer is to run mine for another year or so and I'll find out, but it won't be very scientific
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Good sensible post. Some cannot get their heads around the fact that if you buy cheap nasty batteries they will fail. Here are a couple of examples of my argument.

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5338547443&icep_item=201425470325

A "leisure battery for under £40.00 it will be crap.

A battery for my Cannon Camera at over £200

www.wexphotovideo.com

Canon BP-975 High Capacity Battery Pack | Wex Photo Video

www.wexphotovideo.com

A battery is fundamentally the most important thing in a motorhome, yet some are surprised that they buy the cheapest and then are disappointed by the results

There are a myriad of World Wide standards for batteries and it is bewildering it really is, but, buy the top of the range battery from a well known manufacturer and supplier that has been around and you shouldn't go far wrong.

People that live in the motorhomes will get different results from their batteries than someone who uses it as it is really intended, recreational use.

Some one who is off grid a lot, people that wild camp and rarely have electric hook up will experience completely different results than some one who keeps their van plugged in at home and will by choice stay on sites with a good electrical supply

Me for example, I could easily be virtually self sufficient with the set up on my camper, but my choice is always a superpitch with 16 amp hook up when I go away. You could argue that I don't need Lithiums and the set up I have, but it is my choice.

So there isn't a Worldwide standard for automotive batteries so there certainly won't be one for leisure use, for a start what the hell is "leisure use" Establishing that would be a start!
 
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olley said:
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Allanm said:
Mining in Finland Germany and CzechRepublic are reported to be producing lithium in 2021/2. Seems the EU auto industry are very interested.
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Hopefully it will be better controlled than in China & South America.


www.wired.co.uk

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction

As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own right
www.wired.co.uk www.wired.co.uk

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nicholsong said:
Eddie

You did not mention B2B chargers.

Have you an opinion, do you sell/fit them?

Geoff
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We have been supplying B2B's since early 2000 Most of the on board charging systems installed by European motorhome converters are woeful. And to be honest, if you intend to use Lithium it is Hobsons choice
eddievanbitz said:
VSR's (Voltage Sensing Relays) used for what we all euphemistically call "split charge" are only used by people that don't truly understand what they are doing or are lazy.

The reason that I say this is that on paper a VSR makes for a quicker easier installation, however, if you are a motorhome specialist or use a motorhome yourself (me being both) I know that I will want to charge my engine batteries, dual solar charging for example, and on a nice sunny day, the threshold voltage of the VSR is reached and as the VSR "thinks" that the engine is running it tries to charge the leisure battery and all sorts of weird things happen.

AutoSleepers had an issue a couple of years ago, where they for some reason had used a VSR and on a sunny day, the the solar regulator would attempt to charge the engine battery, the VSR as the threshold voltage was reached, thought that the engine was running, and the Sargent unit turned off all of the habitation electrics, as if the motorhome was being driven! It did take us some working out what was going wrong, but we got there in the end.

This is a typical VSR (I've been walking around taking pictures of random stuff and everyone thinks I've gone mad)
View attachment 327734

There are different makes and different voltage ranges, but it is much better to make a physical connection, so it only works when it is "meant" to work

A relay connected to D+ output on the alternator will only close (make work) when the engine is running and the alternator is charging. This way if the leisure battery is flat, the relay will remain open (not working) until the engine is running.

What this means in real terms is that you turn on the ignition, nothing happens, you start the engine, still nothing happens, and once the alternator is working, the relay starts to do its job and your leisure battery starts to charge.

Sometimes we will see a system where the relay has been connected, just to an ignition switch controlled supply (the wire goes "live" as soon as the ignition is on but the engine isn't started), The trouble with this way is that when you turn on the ignition the leisure battery immediately tries to charge from the engine battery, and then when you crank the starter motor will try to pull power from the engine and leisure batteries, potentially blowing fuses and causing all sorts of problems (just think about the thickness of the wire from the engine battery to the starter motor, then think about the thickness of the wire on the leisure battery!)

So if you have a relay controlled split charge, connected to the D+ your engine and leisure batteries are in parallel (connected together) when the engine is running and the they will both charge, but there will be a voltage difference due to distance and wire gauge.

This is an example of a "good" relay that could be used on the left and the picture on the right showView attachment 327735 common or garden relays that are "normallyView attachment 327742
used.

Often big shiny boxes with loads of wires in and out will only have a couple of common relays internally and people assume that they have a sophisticated charging system when sadly they don't







This is the "guts" of a "all in one "system used in lots of motorhomes, you can see the two black relays. One is the split charge relay and one is the fridge relay (we assume) you can also see the "built in" solar regulator and "heavy duty" wiring

View attachment 327744


Better is a dedicated Battery to Battery device which will, on start, check the state of the engine battery, and once satisfied all is OK will then direct the charge towards the leisure battery(s)

View attachment 327745


Or, the American way is to re-jig it all completely and connect the output of the alternator to a special diode pack and then connect the engine and the auxiliary batteries (what the Yanks call leisure batteries) and then the diode pack sorts it all out

View attachment 327746
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Lenny HB said:
Hopefully it will be better controlled than in China & South America.


www.wired.co.uk

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction

As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own right
www.wired.co.uk www.wired.co.uk
Click to expand...
Just so long as they dont start mining in France.........
 
With the video Charles is comparing a Lithium to flooded batteries & AGM, he has not compared it to a proper leisure battery i.e. a Gel. Gels are not much more expensive than flooded these days and are known to last up to 10 years, this would be a much fairer comparison but you won't get it from Charles he has a big dislike of Gels.
obviously Lithium are far better technically and a Gel has the disadvantage of long charge times and they don't like high current loads but on a cost comparison which is what this video is about I would have thought a Gel would come out tops.
 
Ok here goes....My name is Michael and I abuse batteries:(:(:(
On my brand new motorhome my AGMs lasted just over a year. :mad: We use the inverter a lot during the winter months - Hair Dryer etc:rolleyes: and only BritStop hop around so batteries very rearly get their full charge. I do have 150W of Solar, but UK is only good for a little charge mid Summer. So I replace batteries like for like at much cheapness as dealer agrees, should have lasted longer, but look at the inverter!! 18 months later probably because we drove further in between stops and went abroad for better sun, batteries OK, but failed if using too much or inverter.
Call to the Bitzmeister to fit a B2b and changed to Lithium in Jan this year. Sooo happy with the change, still abuse the batteries cos I am one of those who couldn't care less, but I don't blame anyone else - Well except Jane..;).I dont have a monitor as I am sure the batteries will always be ok and this would probably become obsessive. The B2b takes care of the charging whilst driving short hops and Solar for when we are static and the batteries give max power for far far longer.(y)
 
Lenny HB said:
With the video Charles is comparing a Lithium to flooded batteries & AGM, he has not compared it to a proper leisure battery i.e. a Gel. Gels are not much more expensive than flooded these days and are known to last up to 10 years, this would be a much fairer comparison but you won't get it from Charles he has a big dislike of Gels.
obviously Lithium are far better technically and a Gel has the disadvantage of long charge times and they don't like high current loads but on a cost comparison which is what this video is about I would have thought a Gel would come out tops.
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We are constantly ditching perfectly good Gel batteries as they really don't like working with inverters.

In fact one of the jobs today, two perfectly good batteries out, re-programming the inverter charger and the solar regulator and two Lithiums installed because to cope with the inverter

We had previously installed the Battery to Battery Charger, the inverter/charger, the solar and the battery management computer. The customer was hoping that they would cope and they don't, not for the way that "they" want to use their motorhome.

Not everyone needs Lithium, but if they do they make all the difference

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eddievanbitz said:
We are constantly ditching perfectly good Gel batteries as they really don't like working with inverters.
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No problem if your Gel bank is big enough ideally limit the current draw to 20 amps per battery (a bit more is OK) and you won't have any problems. I have 3 Gels in my van and rarely take more than 75 amps (25 per battery) out of them and they are holding up well.
 
We have two 95ah hab batteries. Standard lead acid. Never on hook up. 300w of solar & a split charger with 90% going to hab. We run a diesel heater twice a day for @4hours Total. Don’t have a tv & all lights led. Except on heater start up we are usually registering 12.4-13.8v. Batteries have been in 5 years. Heater usually drops v to 11.5 or so But quickly rises again when heater glow plug goes off.
it’s just our experience no more.
 
Zigisla said:
Ok here goes....My name is Michael and I abuse batteries:(:(:(
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This is true!

Zigisla said:
Call to the Bitzmeister to fit a B2b and changed to Lithium in Jan this year. Sooo happy with the change, still abuse the batteries cos I am one of those who couldn't care less, but I don't blame anyone else - Well except Jane..;).
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You could try and blame us, but we know what you do! Jane tells us!

Zigisla said:
I don't have a monitor as I am sure the batteries will always be ok and this would probably become obsessive.
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Your wife begged us not to sell you one as she knows about you OCD and that you'd become a slave to it! (As am I :oops:)

Zigisla said:
The B2b takes care of the charging whilst driving short hops and Solar for when we are static and the batteries give max power for far far longer.(y)
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You do have a great set up and joking apart you knew what you wanted and how to achieve it.(You'd LOVE the new Bluetooth Battery Monitor! I'll show you over Rum next time you stay at Cornish Farm ;))
 
Our first MH but if we decide to keep this one longterm then Lithium would be on my wish list if the current ones die, weight saving and much better performance sells it for me. A B2B is a good idea regardless. Win win

Just the price, if we could just win the euro rollover then and we can all treat ourselves
 
eddievanbitz said:
You do have a great set up and joking apart you knew what you wanted and how to achieve it.(You'd LOVE the new Bluetooth Battery Monitor! I'll show you over Rum next time you stay at Cornish Farm ;))
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Done deal. ;)(y) See you Late Jan / Early Feb

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