Lithium risks - an education

[heliart]

10 or 15 years ago when I was into radio control aircraft, and LiPo batteries were just starting to become popular, I saw first hand what can happen to a Lithium Polymer battery when it failed. Typically due to mis-charging or physical damage. Back then we all thought it funny to put a burning LiPo battery in a bucket of water and still see it burning away.
Anyhow, I've always been super cautious charging anything I have at home (drone, tools and even the phone), but I was thinking of late about a possible upgrade to Lithium in the motorhome. After a lot of thought I actually decided against it.
I would highly recomend a watch here:-
Please watch the video above - this is not an anti EV message as such, but more of a critical safety warning, and it struck a chord with me, very much.

 

[Gromett]

but I was thinking of late about a possible upgrade to Lithium in the motorhome. After a lot of thought I actually decided against it.

LiFePO4 chemistry does not burn and is as safe if not safer than Lead Acid batteries.

 

[bigtwin]

Yep, these aren’t used as leisure batteries.

A little knowledge, and all that.

Ian

 

[Swifter]

This exactly how misinformation is spread .

 

[autorouter]

This exactly how misinformation is spread .

Best to use information to fight misinformation

As Gromett says. When most Lithium-ion batteries are damaged or start to burn, the chemicals inside release oxygen, which makes the chemicals burn and produce further oxygen, in a process called thermal runaway. The fire produces its own oxygen, so smothering it will not stop it.

The technology used in motorhome batteries, and many house solar storage batteries, is Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiFePO4, which does not produce oxygen when heated, and won't do thermal runaway. They are in fact safer than lead-acids when damaged.

But it is true that Lithium batteries in phones, laptops, scooters, and ebikes are a growing domestic fire hazard, and EV batteries are a danger to firefighters who aren't trained to deal with them.

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[heliart]

This exactly how misinformation is spread .

Not really. This post was really related to Lithium EV battery fires.
We know the chemistry in lithium leasure batteries is different.

 

[Gromett]

Not really. This post was really related to Lithium EV battery fires.
We know the chemistry in lithium leasure batteries is different.

So why did you say this then?

but I was thinking of late about a possible upgrade to Lithium in the motorhome. After a lot of thought I actually decided against it.

 

[Jim]

I was thinking of late about a possible upgrade to Lithium in the motorhome. After a lot of thought I actually decided against it.

Don't let that put you off, It's a different technology. The Lithium batteries in our motorhome are very safe, even when damaged/punctured/burned. Coupled with the benefits of lighter weight, longer lasting and faster charging ability and falling costs. Its almost becoming a no brainer

 

[ManTheVan]

It might be worth considering that many, many members here have successfully fitted and continue to use LiFePO4 batteries with no ill effects.

They‘re not mandatory and everyone can make their own choice.

All I can advise, from personal experience, is that I would never want to go back to the constant electron-watching in our MH.

I still have lead-acid fitted on our boat, as this is by far the most suitable solution, given the context of use.

LiFePO4 batteries are a great solution for MHs because of their low weight, high capacity reserve and ability to soak up a rapid charge. They are also extremely safe. However, each owner is free to choose the most appropriate solution for themselves and their typical use. I wouldn’t be too worried about fire if you fit them though….

 

[bigtwin]

I still have lead-acid fitted on our boat, as this is by far the most suitable solution, given the context of use.

Out of interest, what type of boat do you have?

Many narrowboaters, myself included, have adopted LiFePo4 systems (often in a hybrid arrangement) and the benefits expressed by most of them are compelling.

Ian

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[Pausim]

Not really. This post was really related to Lithium EV battery fires.
We know the chemistry in lithium leasure batteries is different.

Your post implied a link between fires and your decision not to purchase Li batteries for your motorhome. If this was not the case what were the reasons for your decision?

 

[Gromett]

Starting to come across as anti EV. Ship burning is proof our cities are not ready for EVs... Really?

 

[nigelivy]

As has been said, lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) is a very safe chemistry for leisure battery applications, especially if it is appropriately charged within the manufacturer's specs. If anything, one could argue that a LiFePO4 battery with a GOOD battery management system (BMS) is safer as the BMS should stop the LiFePO4 battery from being overcharged, discharged too much, charged/discharged when too hot, etc.. In most cases, a good LiFePO4 battery has more protection built in than lead acid battery installations.

 

[arthur49]

What has this video got to do with choosing LiFePO4 in a moho?

 

[Two on Tour]

Starting to come across as anti EV. Ship burning is proof our cities are not ready for EVs... Really?

According to the new report I read, the shipping company Shoei Kisen Kaisha transporting the cars stated that there were 25 EV's on board the ship.
The guy appears to be a complete twat with his clickbait titles.

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[Gromett]

According to the new report I read, the shipping company Shoei Kisen Kaisha transporting the cars stated that there were 25 EV's on board the ship.
The guy appears to be a complete twat with his clickbait titles.

It was initially reported as 25 by someone who worked on the ship when they were rescued. Less than 36 hours later the owners of the ship updated that to just under 500.

 

[Jim]

Why do so many influencers put those gormless shock horror type faces on their video covers. Just makes me avoid them, because you know that watching it will be a waste of precious life!

 

[Pausim]

Why do so many influencers put those gormless shock horror type faces on their video covers. Just makes me avoid them, because you know that watching it will be a waste of precious life!

Because they are gormless. It is a public service warning that this person doesn’t know what they are talking about.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Why do so many influencers put those gormless shock horror type faces on their video covers. Just makes me avoid them, because you know that watching it will be a waste of precious life!

It might be their normal face now, as in the old adage about pulling a face and the wind changing Click bait TW@ttery.
Mike.

 

[autorouter]

It was initially reported as 25 by someone who worked on the ship when they were rescued. Less than 36 hours later the owners of the ship updated that to just under 500.

Hope they didn't forget all those Rolex watches and that big roll of cash that also went up in smoke

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[Guigsy]

I bet most people have a couple of dozen lithium ion batteries in their homes. And yet it's had no significant impact on house fires.

Apparently car fires are actually less likely with EVs. Just the EV ones make the click bait news. And when EV fires do occur due to an accident, it's normally some time after the accident and not an immediate issue like a burst petrol tank spilling fuel all over the scene.

EBikes that are brand names and street legal with legit safety checks don't appear to have caused any fires so far. And neither have any of the thousands of hire escooters that get abused to hell daily. Again, because they pass safety checks.

The biggest issue at the moment with lithium ion batteries is cheap (and often illegally used) eBikes DIY kits and eScooters. They have over worked batteries with poor charging electronics. These are the ones that are the risk.

 

[St3v3]

but I was thinking of late about a possible upgrade to Lithium in the motorhome. After a lot of thought I actually decided against it.

Now you have some correct knowledge on MH lithium, I think it would make sense to delete this part of your post and make it clear you're talking about other batteries. You might have to get Jim to do it though.

 

[Bryn_Middx]

For Gromett. As at this morning, the MV Fremantle Highway fire 'appears' to be out and the Dutch Coastguard Press Line is that there is no conclusion as to the cause. Amidst the Media froth, there is an issue on the horizon about movement of Electronic Vehicles (EV) by sea. A proposal has been made within the shipping industry to severely restrict the transport of electric vehicles on Roll on-Roll Off (Ro-Ro) vessels. This relates to concern about the difficulties of extinguishing propulsion lithium battery fires since the procedures and equipment are still in their infancy. Although a newbie in the MH world, I have seen big rigs towing/trailing compact EVs. While the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) includes ferries as Ro-Ro vessels, there are already procedures for hazardous cargo which could apply. So yet another space to watch for UK Gov't guidance. Meanwhile, a recent advert from Asia suggests that there is some way to go before their EV Panel Vans are truly ready for conversion.

 

[Otter Spotter]

For Gromett. As at this morning, the MV Fremantle Highway fire 'appears' to be out and the Dutch Coastguard Press Line is that there is no conclusion as to the cause. Amidst the Media froth, there is an issue on the horizon about movement of Electronic Vehicles (EV) by sea. A proposal has been made within the shipping industry to severely restrict the transport of electric vehicles on Roll on-Roll Off (Ro-Ro) vessels. This relates to concern about the difficulties of extinguishing propulsion lithium battery fires since the procedures and equipment are still in their infancy. Although a newbie in the MH world, I have seen big rigs towing/trailing compact EVs. While the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) includes ferries as Ro-Ro vessels, there are already procedures for hazardous cargo which could apply. So yet another space to watch for UK Gov't guidance. Meanwhile, a recent advert from Asia suggests that there is some way to go before their EV Panel Vans are truly ready for conversion.View attachment 789971

which one would you have as a TOAD ?

 

[Bryn_Middx]

Not sure if any of these EV tricycles have the legs to get up Porlock Hill (1 in 4 or 25%).

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[Pausim]

Not sure if any of these EV tricycles have the legs to get up Porlock Hill (1 in 4 or 25%).

EVs are not lacking in torque. Last year I watched the tv coverage of the Goodwood Festival of Speed and the EVs were really impressive on the hill climb.

 

[VXman]

I was at Timberland Motorhomes in Chesterfield (as an aside I do not recommend that anyone ever goes there for any reason) and while I was just about to get into the motorhome to leave a BMW (petrol car) drove into the entrance area with smoke pouring from the bonnet. The lady driver jumped out and the car burst into flames. By the time the fire service arrived the car was completely burnt out, just a shell left.

Never buy a petrol car - death traps!

 

[Bryn_Middx]

Very True Pausim, but a stockman's view underneath these Tok Toks did not expose a dual motor Tesla drive train.

 

[VXman]

EVs are not lacking in torque. Last year I watched the tv coverage of the Goodwood Festival of Speed and the EVs were really impressive on the hill climb.

Totally agree. I have a 50cc equivalent electric motor scooter. A 50cc petrol bike would not carry 2 adults up a hill, my bike will (albeit a little slowly sometimes!)

 

[Gromett]

EVs are not lacking in torque. Last year I watched the tv coverage of the Goodwood Festival of Speed and the EVs were really impressive on the hill climb.

Exactly right. AND they have that torque in full at zero revs. So instant. You don't have to rev nuts off them and slip a clutch to get going.

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