Lithium LifePO4 charging regime, I’m confused! (1 Viewer)

[Lenny HB]

Ok, well, we'll have to disagree on that. Floating LiFePO4 is (1) potentially dangerous and (2) reduces the lifetime of your battery. You need to keep it at about 50-80% SOC to maximise lifetime, and letting the charger take the strain just because the battery SOC has reduced below 80% is not a good idea. Floating LFP is not as dangerous as floating as Li-Ion, but there's no point, so why bother?

That applies when the battery is not in use, in which case you would normally turn of the chargers. in use the battery is in a constant state of charge/discharge so it's irrelevant.
Victron are pretty much the experts on dealing with Lithium all their chargers have a float state.

 

[EML]

Victron are pretty much the experts on dealing with Lithium all their chargers have a float state.

I should point out, in the interests of balance, that there are people here who don't think Victron are experts. My own Multiplus is nothing to write home about. One particular issue is that the LiFePO4 battery that it's set up for is... Victron's own branded LiFePO4 battery.

 

[headlight]

I should point out, in the interests of balance, that there are people here who don't think Victron are experts. My own Multiplus is nothing to write home about. One particular issue is that the LiFePO4 battery that it's set up for is... Victron's own branded LiFePO4 battery.

So you don't rate Victron then ?

 

[bigtwin]

So you don't rate Victron then ?

There’s a significant minority who don’t (certainly true in the narrowboat world).

Ian

 

[AdrianChen]

Many chargers including the Multiplus have their roots in designs before Lithium was common and were designed to be flexible to charge different chemistry types, also now including lithium. Victron are a very open company and many batteries other than their own can communicate with and integrate with Victrons systems. They have made their software available on the PI for eg. Our Multiplus, and previous MV kit have been very reliable doing what they were/are supposed to do without fault, which is what I want.

My battery is there to store power for when needed, and it suits us to keep it full if EHU/shorepower is available since the next time we stop we may need it's capacity, so it is handy to run the 12v system from the charger on "float" when the battery is full - If not being used it would be stored off charge if ever we did that. For me it is just a battery and needs to work how I need it to work, and in that way it has a finite life, which is more than long enough and safe enough to make it financially and operationally better than other chemistry, but I don't design my motor-homing (or sailing) life to fit in with it, it's just a battery.

There are also folk who believe the earth is flat, and can't be persuaded otherwise

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[Raul]

There’s a significant minority who don’t (certainly true in the narrowboat world).

Ian

Thats strange, victron's core business and strength started in the marine sector, later expanded to grid and off grid. Unfortunately, some don't understand how things work.

 

[Ray-Vic]

I think an opinion or experience of a particular product used in a particular application is one thing, and no doubt a valid point, but to take this and to suggest that Victron are not experts in their field is probably pushing it a bit.

Are Victron the best available? Depending on the specific application, no, absolutely not. I had an off grid property in Spain using Studer Innotec equipment for 20 years which was absolutely superb, using fanless and CANBUS technology back then. Both in terms of quality and technology (certainly at that time) I feel it is far superior, but then so is the cost. Outback is also better in this application, but I wouldn't fit either in a motorhome as they are too big, too heavy and far too expensive given the alternatives available.

Victron does a very good range of very reasonably priced equipment which, when installed well in the right application, works very well and reflects exceptional value for money. From an electronics perspective some of the older equipment it is a little dated, but it works. Their shift to SMT is very evident in products like the new Multiplus 2 and XS MPPT, and is a reflection of the level of investment and expertise, but this will take time to filter through to all the product range.

Victron will absolutely set things up optimally for their own equipment, why wouldn't they, they're a manufacturer? Their aim is to provide a connected solution of every piece of kit you need, including batteries. However, you can adjust these settings to suit your application.

We can't lose sight of the fact that Victron kit is not made specifically for installation in motorhomes, campers or caravans, it is designed for installation in a multitude of applications, some of which will see better results than others.

If I were to install another off grid solution in an off grid property I would definitely now consider Victron, something which I wouldn't have done 20 years ago.

Can you tell I'm a recent convert?

 

[AdrianChen]

Thats strange, victron's core business and strength started in the marine sector, later expanded to grid and off grid. Unfortunately, some don't understand how things work.

In the companies I know building yachts Victron was very well regarded as was MV - Decades ago boats were simple, but as technology and owners requirements have changed the systems complexity has too, and there were few other makers who could provide these modern comprehensive systems with the quality/reliability required for long distance cruisers. In the custom/semi custom (not superyachts) market the price is not the main selection criteria for parts (as it may be in the production market). However no company is completely immune from issues though.

Reading some of the posts on some FB forums from DIY converters/installers I would be more wary of the build/wiring than the kit itself.

Luckily for me/others there are plenty of Pro's to call on!

 

[Raul]

I agree about Studer, harmonic distortion and power factor load handling, Studer is far superior to Victron, but, as you said at a price. Victron has a well balanced offering and a bit more integration options.
Studer was the first to build a high voltage MPPT ( vario string) at 900VOC DC, then few years later, the number one solar controller in the world ( morningstar) brought one out at 600 VOC DC. Victron took about 6 years later to bring the 250voc to the market, now they have a 450voc to. Victron took baby steps, but surely are competitive and respectable gear.

 

[AdrianChen]

I think an opinion or experience of a particular product used in a particular application is one thing, and no doubt a valid point, but to take this and to suggest that Victron are not experts in their field is probably pushing it a bit.

Are Victron the best available? Depending on the specific application, no, absolutely not. I had an off grid property in Spain using Studer Innotec equipment for 20 years which was absolutely superb, using fanless and CANBUS technology back then. Both in terms of quality and technology (certainly at that time) I feel it is far superior, but then so is the cost. Outback is also better in this application, but I wouldn't fit either in a motorhome as they are too big, too heavy and far too expensive given the alternatives available.

Victron does a very good range of very reasonably priced equipment which, when installed well in the right application, works very well and reflects exceptional value for money. From an electronics perspective some of the older equipment it is a little dated, but it works. Their shift to SMT is very evident in products like the new Multiplus 2 and XS MPPT, and is a reflection of the level of investment and expertise, but this will take time to filter through to all the product range.

Victron will absolutely set things up optimally for their own equipment, why wouldn't they, they're a manufacturer? Their aim is to provide a connected solution of every piece of kit you need, including batteries. However, you can adjust these settings to suit your application.

We can't lose sight of the fact that Victron kit is not made specifically for installation in motorhomes, campers or caravans, it is designed for installation in a multitude of applications, some of which will see better results than others.

If I were to install another off grid solution in an off grid property I would definitely now consider Victron, something which I wouldn't have done 20 years ago.

Can you tell I'm a recent convert?

I guess there is still a question, as there used to be, as to whether it is better for a specific case to select best of breed and separate components, or complete integrated systems - For me the issue in our van was the integrated system was CBE - marvellously compact though it is, it lacked some functionality and capacity (b2B, Inverter and a max of 240AH gel batteries) and in 2022 didn't recognise lithium in its components or monitoring - hence we changed the system. What would be great in my view is if the bigger converters would catch up and offer more comprehensive and scalable systems (optional of course).....

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[Ray-Vic]

I agree about Studer, harmonic distortion and power factor load handling, Studer is far superior to Victron, but, as you said at a price. Victron has a well balanced offering and a bit more integration options.
Studer was the first to build a high voltage MPPT ( vario string) at 900VOC DC, then few years later, the number one solar controller in the world ( morningstar) brought one out at 600 VOC DC. Victron took about 6 years later to bring the 250voc to the market, now they have a 450voc to. Victron took baby steps, but surely are competitive and respectable gear.

I was running 2 Morningstar MPPT's but not the 600V ones. As you say, that came out later, and at greatly increased cost. Very good units and gave me no issues at all, even though I ran both flat out @ 125V and 60A in southern Spain, so pretty harsh environment for fanless units.

 

[Ray-Vic]

I guess there is still a question, as there used to be, as to whether it is better for a specific case to select best of breed and separate components, or complete integrated systems - For me the issue in our van was the integrated system was CBE - marvellously compact though it is, it lacked some functionality and capacity (b2B, Inverter and a max of 240AH gel batteries) and in 2022 didn't recognise lithium in its components or monitoring - hence we changed the system. What would be great in my view is if the bigger converters would catch up and offer more comprehensive and scalable systems (optional of course).....

In an ideal world, with money and space no issue, I would go with components over fully integrated personally. It's the only way to get a truly bespoke system absolutely tailored to the individual needs and maximising every bit of every component and why many of us get new(ish) vans and then set about changing bits to get better performance for our individual needs.

I think if we go best in breed for everything the biggest issue is likely to be cost. Some of the very best MPPT's for example are very costly, but do they provide quantifiable additional yeald on the scale which we are using them? No, of course not, but on a larger scale (off grid properties for example) the difference is going to definitely be noticeable. At £270 odd the Victron XS will do a more than adequate job for all but the most demanding applications we are likely to be putting them through on motorhomes I would have thought, as do many others of course.

I suspect the bigger converters, in the main, go with whoever their buyers can obtain the best deals from whilst maintaining the reliability/quality they demand. They will work out of the factory for most cases, but many of us like to tinker, improve and bespoke our system, so It would be interesting if they did do a bespoke system to specification, or even have the knowledge to do so, with much of the support in this area coming from the equipment supplier I would guess. I can't imagine it being a cheap option if they did, but wouldn't it be nice to have the choice?!

 

[headlight]

I can only speak from my own experience.
I have Victron kit in this motorhome, had Victron kit in my previous PVC and have Victron kit on my boat.
All has performed as it should.

 

[autorouter]

There are advantages to separate components, as you say, but there are also disadvantages. For example when you want to charge the battery from any extra solar, but not charge from the grid unless it gets very low. Then you need the components to communicate with each other, which is a lot easier if they are the same brand.

 

[EML]

There are also folk who believe the earth is flat, and can't be persuaded otherwise

I'm an electronic engineer, and I've spent 40 years designing and using electronic equipment on a daily basis. I don't rate Victron, you do. Big deal. It seems to be a bit irrational to suggest that I might also believe that the earth is flat simply because you have a different point of view.

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[AdrianChen]

I'm an electronic engineer, and I've spent 40 years designing and using electronic equipment on a daily basis. I don't rate Victron, you do. Big deal. It seems to be a bit irrational to suggest that I might also believe that the earth is flat simply because you have a different point of view.

"I should point out, in the interests of balance, that there are people here who don't think Victron are experts."

I stand corrected - you are the expert, Victron are not.

I didn't suggest you thought the earth was flat (it is I've lived on it for 65 years so I know) - I suggested that proposing Victron are not experts in their own field shows a similar disposition to Flat Earthers, because they are an eminently successful company in their field.

Either way there was no offence intended, and I apologise for any taken.

 

[LostInSpace]

[The Earth is flat.] it is I've lived on it for 65 years so I know.

It certainly is round here. That is why we go away to places with hills and valleys.