Lithium Confusion (again, sorry)

[two]

I'm getting more and more dispirited on the whole matter.

Apologies if that's my fault!
I have been keen to adopt Lithium for several years now but have delayed because of conflicting statements made by those (even 'trusted' installers) selling them.
I decided that it's an unnecessary enhancement in my case and the practice under developed. Meanwhile, the technology is changing (cheaper/smaller/lighter) so waiting may pay.

 

[Ingwe]

Apologies if that's my fault!
I have been keen to adopt Lithium for several years now but have delayed because of conflicting statements made by those (even 'trusted' installers) selling them.
I decided that it's an unnecessary enhancement in my case and the practice under developed. Meanwhile, the technology is changing (cheaper/smaller/lighter) so waiting may pay.

Not at all, I'm grateful for your comments. I'm in a similar position to you. In February this year I followed a thread started by colyboy on lithium batteries and the same issues were raised. I just keep hoping that the technology may improve or there will be improvements that mean you can just "drop in" the new battery as the sellers suggest.

 

[Chuns]

I have discovered another negative (for me) of a LiFePo4 battery which is, what I think, we are discussing. I was about to buy, but almost by accident discovered that it won't run my coffee machine, so not a “Drop in” replacement at all.

The lead/acid system runs it fine, so anybody else considering going this route might want to do a bit of digging if they have high-load calls on their inverter.

The 1300watt coffee machine takes around 5amps at 240 volts, and working with an inverter efficiency of around, say, 85% means that the battery will be asked to deliver more than 100 amps, albeit for under a minute (I am religious about only turning the machine on when I am ready to make the coffee, and turn it off the second it is done).

Most of the 85 or 100 Ah batteries I have looked at have a maximum steady current of considerably less than that, and some have a peak, or pulse current near it, but only for a very short time, measured in a couple of seconds. I haven’t found one that will deliver >100amps for the 50 seconds I need.

I didn't mind the extra for a new solar controller, a B2B, and having my Electroblock modified, as I was keen to gain a significant amount of payload, but I won't be without my coffee., so I am about to abandon the project.

Unless somebody tells me I've got it all wrong. Please?

 

[Lenny HB]

I have discovered another negative (for me) of a LiFePo4 battery which is, what I think, we are discussing. I was about to buy, but almost by accident discovered that it won't run my coffee machine, so not a “Drop in” replacement at all.

The lead/acid system runs it fine, so anybody else considering going this route might want to do a bit of digging if they have high-load calls on their inverter.

The 1300watt coffee machine takes around 5amps at 240 volts, and working with an inverter efficiency of around, say, 85% means that the battery will be asked to deliver more than 100 amps, albeit for under a minute (I am religious about only turning the machine on when I am ready to make the coffee, and turn it off the second it is done).

Most of the 85 or 100 Ah batteries I have looked at have a maximum steady current of considerably less than that, and some have a peak, or pulse current near it, but only for a very short time, measured in a couple of seconds. I haven’t found one that will deliver >100amps for the 50 seconds I need.

I didn't mind the extra for a new solar controller, a B2B, and having my Electroblock modified, as I was keen to gain a significant amount of payload, but I won't be without my coffee., so I am about to abandon the project.

Unless somebody tells me I've got it all wrong. Please?

You have got it wrong most of the good quality LiFePo4 batteries can take a max load of 1C so a 100a/h one can deliver 100 amps however if planning to use a load that high it would be sensible to fit 2 batteries if you want a long life from them.

Max current you should draw from a 100a/h lead acid battery is 20 amp so you would need 5 batteries.

Although with all batteries you can draw more than the rated load and get away with it you will shorten their life considerably.

If you have been running your coffee maker from one or two 100a/h lead acid batteries you have been doing a good job of them.

 

[two]

I have discovered another negative (for me) of a LiFePo4 battery which is, what I think, we are discussing. I was about to buy, but almost by accident discovered that it won't run my coffee machine, so not a “Drop in” replacement at all.

The lead/acid system runs it fine, so anybody else considering going this route might want to do a bit of digging if they have high-load calls on their inverter.

The 1300watt coffee machine takes around 5amps at 240 volts, and working with an inverter efficiency of around, say, 85% means that the battery will be asked to deliver more than 100 amps, albeit for under a minute (I am religious about only turning the machine on when I am ready to make the coffee, and turn it off the second it is done).

Most of the 85 or 100 Ah batteries I have looked at have a maximum steady current of considerably less than that, and some have a peak, or pulse current near it, but only for a very short time, measured in a couple of seconds. I haven’t found one that will deliver >100amps for the 50 seconds I need.

I didn't mind the extra for a new solar controller, a B2B, and having my Electroblock modified, as I was keen to gain a significant amount of payload, but I won't be without my coffee., so I am about to abandon the project.

Unless somebody tells me I've got it all wrong. Please?

You might investigate a Bellman CX25 stovetop coffee maker.
They can work from any heat source, including induction, and steam milk.
For best results, you'll need a (hand) grinder too.
If you don't want to froth milk, just get a standard mocha pot.

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[DumfriesDik]

Unless somebody tells me I've got it all wrong. Please?

My wife tells me you have it wrong and suggests you try an Aeropress!!

Interesting thread, thanks everyone.

 

[Chuns]

Thanks all, and LennyHB especially. Given me more to agonise over. What I find most interesting is that my Lead acid battery seems to have done amazingly well, it is 5 years old now, and knocked out a daily coffee (sometimes twice) for about 100 days a year, with only 10% of that on EHU.

it failed because I allowed it to totally discharge itself.

I currently have 100Ah, and am wondering now, following Lenny's observation, whether two smaller LiFePos would provide both the capacity and the ability to give the higher current.

All this to save c 20 kg.

 

[Chuns]

Well, thank you, Mrs DumfriesDik. I've just researched Aeropress, and it meets my “coffee criteria” and the reason I chose the Nespresso Essenza Mini, that is lightweight, no bulk, and no mess, with the added bonus of no electricity.

All down to money now.

 

[Pausim]

I have discovered another negative (for me) of a LiFePo4 battery which is, what I think, we are discussing. I was about to buy, but almost by accident discovered that it won't run my coffee machine, so not a “Drop in” replacement at all.

The lead/acid system runs it fine, so anybody else considering going this route might want to do a bit of digging if they have high-load calls on their inverter.

The 1300watt coffee machine takes around 5amps at 240 volts, and working with an inverter efficiency of around, say, 85% means that the battery will be asked to deliver more than 100 amps, albeit for under a minute (I am religious about only turning the machine on when I am ready to make the coffee, and turn it off the second it is done).

Most of the 85 or 100 Ah batteries I have looked at have a maximum steady current of considerably less than that, and some have a peak, or pulse current near it, but only for a very short time, measured in a couple of seconds. I haven’t found one that will deliver >100amps for the 50 seconds I need.

I didn't mind the extra for a new solar controller, a B2B, and having my Electroblock modified, as I was keen to gain a significant amount of payload, but I won't be without my coffee., so I am about to abandon the project.

Unless somebody tells me I've got it all wrong. Please?

My 100Ah LiFePO4 has a recommended peak discharge rate of 200A (7.5 s ±2.5 s), a continuous rate of 100A and a current cut off of set to 280A (±50 A). I doubt you will find a lead acid leisure battery that gets remotely close to that.

 

[funflair]

Super B LiFePO4 90ah continuous current 200amps peak discharge 350amps but just short of £1600 so at least you get better performance for the extra cash.

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[Lenny HB]

I currently have 100Ah, and am wondering now, following Lenny's observation, whether two smaller LiFePos would provide both the capacity and the ability to give the higher current.

Doubt it the max is normally 1C so a 50a/h will only deliver 50amps.

All this to save c 20 kg.

Why not just uprate the van, probably cheaper.

 

[Stanbrook]

Here is my story of Alibaba lithium leisurely battery: l ordered on 8th September 2020 and it finally arrived on 20th December 2020. Transported by train according to them (Shenzhen GTKPower batteries. After complaining and dispute Resolution l got the price down to £260. The battery has a built in BMS and comes with a 10A 12.6V mains charger.
So is it any good?

I use it as a stand alone portable power supply 9.3Kg with 300w sterling inverter and charger mounted on the top.

I have tested it with a 10A load and it appears to work for around 8-9hours until the voltage is too low for the inverter.

Here are a few screen shots of the BMS which was very easy to pair with my phone. Incidentally you can turn the output of the battery on and off using the app. Goodluck

 

[Lenny HB]

We have a Hymer so I emailed Udo at Schaudt and he advised setting the EBL charger to Gel and it would work,

Missed this when the thread was hot.
I wouldn't want to do that, the EBL on the Gel setting once it reaches the charged voltage of 14.4v for the absorption phase it holds at 14.4v for 16 hours. I don't think that is a good idea with Lithiums.

With my last van Udo told me the Gel setting was fine with Banner AGM's so now I take anything he says with a pinch of salt.

 

[Pausim]

I wouldn't want to do that, the EBL on the Gel setting once it reaches the charged voltage of 14.4v for the absorption phase it holds at 14.4v for 16 hours. I don't think that is a good idea with Lithiums.

Most of the LiFePO4 battery manufacturers seem happy to recommend the gel setting. This is what Relion say.
Most lead-acid battery chargers can be used with LiFePO4 batteries as long as they are within the appropriate voltage guidelines. AGM and Gel algorithms typically fall within the LiFePO4 voltage requirements.

Since moving my battery to my Carthago I have not bothered to install the Li charger I removed from my Hymer. I have had no problems using the gel setting on the CBE charger. The 14.4V is bit below the maximum charge voltage but when the battery matches the 14.4V the current simply stops flowing into it. The absorption phase is not needed but doesn’t seem to do any harm, the electrons simply stop flowing.

 

[Pausim]

Here is my story of Alibaba lithium leisurely battery: l ordered on 8th September 2020 and it finally arrived on 20th December 2020. Transported by train according to them (Shenzhen GTKPower batteries. After complaining and dispute Resolution l got the price down to £260. The battery has a built in BMS and comes with a 10A 12.6V mains charger.
So is it any good?

I use it as a stand alone portable power supply 9.3Kg with 300w sterling inverter and charger mounted on the top.

I have tested it with a 10A load and it appears to work for around 8-9hours until the voltage is too low for the inverter.

Here are a few screen shots of the BMS which was very easy to pair with my phone. Incidentally you can turn the output of the battery on and off using the app. Goodluck

View attachment 458231 View attachment 458232 View attachment 458233 View attachment 458234 View attachment 458235 View attachment 458236 View attachment 458237

The cell voltages compared with the pack voltages suggest there are only 3 sets of cells in series, rather than the more usual 4. I think this means that although there are still 100Ah, the energy stored (Watts) will only be 75% of that in a higher voltage 4 cell series battery. Doesn’t mean the battery is not excellent value.

Of course my reasoning may be defective and I am happy to be put right.

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[Googlebot]

Missed this when the thread was hot.
I wouldn't want to do that, the EBL on the Gel setting once it reaches the charged voltage of 14.4v for the absorption phase it holds at 14.4v for 16 hours. I don't think that is a good idea with Lithiums.

With my last van Udo told me the Gel setting was fine with Banner AGM's so now I take anything he says with a pinch of salt.

What setting would you use with a Lithium Lenny? I was going to use the Gel setting with mine as the voltage is slightly lower than the flooded cell setting?

 

[two]

If you don't have a Lithium setting, Gel is the next best.

 

[Lenny HB]

What setting would you use with a Lithium Lenny? I was going to use the Gel setting with mine as the voltage is slightly lower than the flooded cell setting?

I would talk to the battery manufacturer to make sure.

 

[Stanbrook]

The cell voltages compared with the pack voltages suggest there are only 3 sets of cells in series, rather than the more usual 4. I think this means that although there are still 100Ah, the energy stored (Watts) will only be 75% of that in a higher voltage 4 cell series battery. Doesn’t mean the battery is not excellent value.

Of course my reasoning may be defective and I am happy to be put right.

Hi the battery does have 3 cells.

Today's test for using 3 fans 136W or 10.8A load ran for 9hrs before the inverter went into low voltage alarm/shutdown.

Recharging took 11hrs on mains using the supplied 10A 12.6V charger.

The following pictures show the cell volts and App display. Good luck

 

[mitzimad]

I had oaktree contact me today with view to buying a halfprice 100amp battery(thank you jim) im assured that gel settings will work i think my solar has a custom setup so hopefully that will do the top up

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