Lithium car starter battery?

gerry mcg

gerry mcg

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Not MH related, but topic came up on a Porsche forum I frequent.

I'm not looking to do it. Just interested.
Are lithium battery even suitable for starter battery use?

What are the pros and cons of swapping out (say) a 60Ah AGM battery with a lithium one?

I understand some newer Porsches offer a standard lightweight lithium starter battery as an (expensive) option, and so might be possible to code the car to use a lithium charging profile.

Cars have Smart Alternator, shunt on. Negative terminal and Auto start stop.
I've seen 15.1v from the charging circuit when the engine island on and under load
Assume the battery has a BMS.

Pros are principally weight saving, plus deeper Depth of discharge , so possibly a smaller Ah battery required as a result (30-40Ah), faster charging / perhaps 'better' electrical performance? (13.5v) I think poor battery healthier / lower voltages from failing batteries can give rise to electrical gremlins such as misfire and rough running and in the case of out Fiat Ducatos, low starter battery can result in airbag ecu faults

Cons, cost, inbuilt vehicle charging system incompatible with lithium chemistry (voltages etc).

Any thoughts on this?
 
I like your thinking, but our electric vehicles all have lead acid 12v conventional batteries for lights etc.
A real con for lithium (as the central 12v battery) on an internal combustion engine is low temperature performance and charging. They are quite a bit more 'high-maintenance' as they need to be heated in order to perform a start of an engine.
Engine/starter batteries can get really cold. Lithium does not like sub-zero at all. Just my two-penneth...
 
My understanding is that there is quite a big difference between "lithiums" used in electrics vehicle drive chains, smart phones etc and the lithium iron phosphate batteries we use for leisure use
 
DethleffsOwnersClubUK said:
I like your thinking, but our electric vehicles all have lead acid 12v conventional batteries for lights etc.
A real con for lithium (as the central 12v battery) on an internal combustion engine is low temperature performance and charging. They are quite a bit more 'high-maintenance' as they need to be heated in order to perform a start of an engine.
Engine/starter batteries can get really cold. Lithium does not like sub-zero at all. Just my two-penneth...
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Good point - i didn’t think about low temp charging issues.(and in Porsche, the battery is external , in the front, miles away from the engine - so won’t get any heat soak either
how do BEV cope with low temp charging? do they have battery heating as part of the charge cycle? Is the issue with below zero charging particular to LiFePO batteries?

it looks like Tesla are changing some batteries from NiCoAl batteries to LiFePO for some of their cars https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-in-all-standard-range-cars.html
 
Last edited:
GMLS said:
My understanding is that there is quite a big difference between "lithiums" used in electrics vehicle drive chains, smart phones etc and the lithium iron phosphate batteries we use for leisure use
Click to expand...
Very possibly - i don’t know if the starter lithium battery chemistry is Li-Ion or LiFePO… obviously Li-Ion is a more risky chemistry from a fire perspective.

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funflair said:
Well they certainly sell LiFePO4 for motorsport use and quote a performance figure at -20c

www.autosport-bearings.co.uk

Lithium Ion Starter Battery 15P-EC | ABC Bearings

Buy Lithium Ion Starter Battery 15P-EC online now! We also sell batteries, bearings, fasteners, lubricants and more.
www.autosport-bearings.co.uk www.autosport-bearings.co.uk
Click to expand...
I wonder if the are saying it will operate to -20, but might not recharge?
KS Energy do an heated "Arctic" lithium battery that can reportedly be charged to -30 https://www.ksenergy.co.uk/lithium-battery-products
 
Tesla limit charging and regen till the main cars battery is up to temp.

They also now fit lithium batteries instead of lead acid for the 12v one
 
the standard KS-Energy batteries say
Low temperature charge protection (charge current disconnects at zero <0oC)
Operating temperature range: -20oC to +50oC, storage temperature range: -20oC to +30oC

the heated "Arctic" version says
BMS integral protection: Low temperature cell heating: (charge current diverted to internal heating elements <0C)
Operating temperature range: -30oC to +60oC

so it says the charge current is diverted to heating below 0C in the Arctic version

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Do LiPO4 batteries have sufficient cold cranking amps for use as a starter batter? I thought they were designed for prolonged lower discharge rates.
 
cyberyacht said:
Do LiPO4 batteries have sufficient cold cranking amps for use as a starter batter? I thought they were designed for prolonged lower discharge rates.
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Yes and then some! The ones I bought recently - 650A for 30sec, 420A for 3min, and 210A continuous.
 
Carpmart said:
Everyone I used to race with has swapped over to Lithium in their track and race cars.
Click to expand...
I guess this is a weight saving benefit in motorsport, so it's a no brainer, plus the battery can be kept warm / charged when >0C, but doesn't really inform it's suitability for daily driver use
 
cyberyacht said:
Do LiPO4 batteries have sufficient cold cranking amps for use as a starter batter? I thought they were designed for prolonged lower discharge rates.
Click to expand...
Probably OK on petrol engines that spin over fairly easy, can't see them working on diesels that need several hundred amps to turn them

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I wonder if EVs have a separate 12v battery. You would have thought they would just have one big battery bank and phev,s
 
My race car has one but its rated in pca rather than cca because of the design, we use them because we run without an alternator. Will crank over a blown, fuel injected 800ci motor but well over £2000, I wouldnt want to turn over a big cold Cummins with it 👍
 
The Wino said:
I wonder if EVs have a separate 12v battery. You would have thought they would just have one big battery bank and phev,s
Click to expand...
teslas do, but they are now putting in lithiums instead of lead acid
 

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