Lithium Batteries, again!

[OldAgeTravellers]

I know this has been discussed time and again on here but my specific questions have not really been answered unless I haven’t found the correct threads. It is a long post so forgive me.

I currently have three Sonnenschein GF-12-65-V 78Ah Gel batteries which are coming up to 6 years old. They have been great but, on our recent trip to Spain they have been taking a very long time to get up to fully charged. On the last few days driving they are struggling to get above 14.02 volts on my Victron Smart Shunt app whereas the engine battery has been reaching 14.25 volts. And they seem to be discharging much quicker which suggests to me that they are on their way out and need replacing especially as we are planning a trip to Norway in the summer and I suspect the amount of strong overhead sun will be limited. So as the price of Lithium seems to have come down significantly. I note that RogerIvy at Off Grid Power Solutions are doing a 300Ah one for £840 which is about twice the usable capacity as my existing three and probably 20% of the weight for only half as much more than I paid 6 years ago. It seems worth going Lithium and doing so before the GEL’s fail on me. I am a little concerned on just having one battery though. Although the majority of motorhomes only have one.

I have a Hymer “A” class B614 Star Line 2012 vintage. So I presume it has a standard alternator not a “Smart” one but perhaps Hymer fitted a heavy duty one to this model but I really don’t know how to find out.

I have ordered a Victron Orion XS B2B charger from Roger, which will sort out the vehicle charging and is great for Lithium.

I have a Votronic 350 MPP Duo Digital solar controller which has various LiFePO settings so should suit any battery I might get so charge the Lithium’s from my 300 watt of solar panels.

As far as mains charging goes, I rarely, if ever have hook-up perhaps one night a year, and then only to get out of trouble if my batteries are getting too low. So from what I have read, and there are many differing opinions. My Schaudt EBL101 which has a GEL setting should be OK, it won’t fully charge the battery perhaps only 80% but will charge enough to get out of trouble and we will be able to use the van overnight anyway, because it will be on hook-up. It certainly would not be charging for more than a day. I keep it disconnected all of the time when at home. Roadpro actually suggest that it could be good for the battery to only charge to 80%

So, after all that:

1. Do the collective disagree on my understanding of my mains charger being ok to keep. Considering of how little I use it.
2. Does anybody have any experience of the OPS300 Lithium battery. I know Roger is on here who may like to comment, but just looking for independent experience really.
3. What functionality will be left in the Schaudt DT203 panel. Presumably just voltage as it will not be able to calculate the SOC as the charge relay will be bi-passed for fitting the B2B but should be able to still show voltage & solar charge I hope.
4. Have I missed anything important I should be considering.

If you have read this far thanks and I welcome all feedback on my problem.
Edit: p.s. My batteries are in an external belly locker which may get cold but when we have heating on, there is a feed to keep the batteries a little warmer. Would temperature be a problem say in Norway? I understand that current can be drawn when below 4deg otherwise we couldn’t have the heating on!

 

[ivorantony]

I will watch with interest as I’m thinking along the same lines this coming spring,

 

[HKF]

We've just changed over the Lithium and have a LiFePO4. The operating temperature range is -20 to 60C, with optimal range being 0°C and 45°C. I would imagine they're all fairly similar.

 

[fat haggis]

I’ve done 2/ 200ah lithium lifepo4 solar is set properly I’m have a 240/ charger with lifepo4 settings. And a the new B2b coming next month. Plenty of off grid power now. Got my sat dome to fit also. (I’m banned from ladders on the Hymer roof )

 

[Lenny HB]

As your van is a keeper Steve and you use it 100% off grid I would be inclined to spend a bit more money and fit 2x 230 ah Lithium like you I like a bit of redundancy, not that happy with a single battery.
The other option is to take the view if on the off chance the Lithium failed just buy a cheap lead to complete the trip.

Your alternator will be a standard one and I think it will be 160 amp so plenty of power.

Your Gels if they were new would give 187 ah of useable power a 300 ah Lithium 240 ah.

The EBL charger will be OK for your use, I would only change it if you were to start using EHU a lot.

Why worry about what the DT 203 is showing when you already have a BMV700 which is far more accurate.

As for the DT 203 showing solar charge I would forget about that and bypass the EBL with the solar as you loose about 5% through the EBL.

You can use Lithium down to - 20° but mustn't charge them below zero preferably +4°.
Roger also sells the Fogstar batteries and you get the discount so only about £10 dearer than his batteries and they have a built in heater which will heat the battery before it allows it to charge.

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[OldAgeTravellers]

As your van is a keeper Steve and you use it 100% off grid I would be inclined to spend a bit more money and fit 2x 230 ah Lithium like you I like a bit of redundancy, not that happy with a single battery.
The other option is to take the view if on the off chance the Lithium failed just buy a cheap lead to complete the trip.

Your alternator will be a standard one and I think it will be 160 amp so plenty of power.

Your Gels if they were new would give 187 ah of useable power a 300 ah Lithium 240 ah.

The EBL charger will be OK for your use, I would only change it if you were to start using EHU a lot.

Why worry about what the DT 203 is showing when you already have a BMV700 which is far more accurate.

As for the DT 203 showing solar charge I would forget about that and bypass the EBL with the solar as you loose about 5% through the EBL.

You can use Lithium down to - 20° but mustn't charge them below zero preferably +4°.
Roger also sells the Fogstar batteries and you get the discount so only about £10 dearer than his batteries and they have a built in heater which will heat the battery before it allows it to charge.

Hi Lenny, yes I was going to chat to you about it on Sunday but I suppose it is good to get it down here so everyone can participate.
Two batteries would be good but with all the other things we neeed to do to it this year perhaps a bit of a stretch £560 more and a cheapo starter battery if the lithium fails sounds the best plan to start with. But two for redundancy does sound attractive!
I like the DT203 to see easily the solar charge and I don’t have much faith in the Smart Shunt as it hasn’t been a good experience for me, possibly because I didn’t set it up properly but it has never ever reset automatically so it is always showing the wrong percentage. Hopefully that will change with a new setup And I will get some confidence in it. Maybe another meter just for viewing solar data or set up a Pi and HomeAssistant to monitor the lot. Maybe a bit more research on that.
Good that you agree that in my case the mains charger can be left as is as I have so little space for another.
I will look at the Fogstar, I didn’t realise that they had a heater. Sounds attractive for the colder weather. Would be nice to hear from somebody with direct experience of them though.
Anyway, Ineed to make a decision before Roger gets the Orion XS’s in so I can get it all fitted.
Steve

 

[Lenny HB]

I will look at the Fogstar, I didn’t realise that they had a heater. Sounds attractive for the colder weather. Would be nice to hear from somebody with direct experience of them though.

Quite a lot of Funsters have fitted Fogstar they use the EVE cells same as Roger uses and they are the main importers for EVE cells. A few people have had problems with the BMS in the Fogstar but their customer service has been good. Probably what I'll be using as they have a slight size advantage over Rogers own ones.

Another option would be 3 x 105 ah Fogstar that would only be £156 more.

With your BMV 700 I though we established last week that it was you and your settings were totally wrong, I don't think you can get a better battery monitor than the BMV it's far superior to the Schaudt one in your Hymer.

 

[OldAgeTravellers]

With your BMV 700 I though we established last week that it was you and your settings were totally wrong, I don't think you can get a better battery monitor than the BMV it's far superior to the Schaudt one in your Hymer.

Yes but with your settings it still doesn’t reset but that may be that the batteries will not take the charge properly.

 

[Carpmart]

Is there a danger of applying old logic to new technology?

The talk of redundancy (which I in principle always like) is a moot point with lithium leisure batteries compared with lead. It’s just not a thing, so actually a large single battery is perfect for most now.

It’s much more likely that space is the dictating factor as to if one buys a single lithium of multiple lithiums.

 

[Lenny HB]

The talk of redundancy (which I in principle always like) is a moot point with lithium leisure batteries compared with lead. It’s just not a thing, so actually a large single battery is perfect for most now.

The cells the self maybe very reliable but BMS's sometimes have a hissy fit.

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[Cush]

My only 2 pence worth to add (don’t think you’ll get much better advice than above) is that you could purchase a victron IP65 charger from Roger. it’s portable and could be plugged in to a 230v socket on the rare occasions you are on ehu, with your on board charger fuse pulled.

 

[AdrianChen]

Is there a danger of applying old logic to new technology?

The talk of redundancy (which I in principle always like) is a moot point with lithium leisure batteries compared with lead. It’s just not a thing, so actually a large single battery is perfect for most now.

It’s much more likely that space is the dictating factor as to if one buys a single lithium of multiple lithiums.

Had two big 5500WH Mastervolt Lithiums in our system all with Mastervolt monitoring and control/bms - one failed, rare but quite possible - with prismatic cells if one goes down the battery is no good as in my case. I was told the battery internal BMS was to blame. So I am with Lenny HB.

If there are space restrictions or other reasons, then all fine with one battery, but if I have the option I would use two - would not be keen to have more than 2 in one bank though - some BMS's reputedly struggle to cell balance correctly despite the marketing claims......

 

[Raul]

I have 3 batteries on my van now, originally when we built the van, it had 2x200ah, and last year Black Friday, the very good deal at fogstar, made me buy 4x300ah cells and a 200A bms for less than £500. So I built it myself, and now have 3 batteries in use since last year. This trip, the 700ah proved to be bliss off grid, using electric oven and hot plate off grid, and the next day the panels put back most of it.
I was not sure of mixing different bms packs in the same bank, but they play together nicely, each bms caters for each pack and contributes fairly equal to their size. Very happy,

 

[AdrianChen]

I have 3 batteries on my van now, originally when we built the van, it had 2x200ah, and last year Black Friday, the very good deal at fogstar, made me buy 4x300ah cells and a 200A bms for less than £500. So I built it myself, and now have 3 batteries in use since last year. This trip, the 700ah proved to be bliss off grid, using electric oven and hot plate off grid, and the next day the panels put back most of it.
I was not sure of mixing different bms packs in the same bank, but they play together nicely, each bms caters for each pack and contributes fairly equal to their size. Very happy,

Sure I heard Fogstar have some mods made to the bms to ensure the cell balancing/bms's work properly for up to 4? But Im old enough for that to be wishful thinking.....

 

[Raul]

Sure I heard Fogstar have some mods made to the bms to ensure the cell balancing/bms's work properly for up to 4? But Im old enough for that to be wishful thinking.....

I prefer to build one from scratch, and have full control of my chosen bms. I went with JK bms that has a 2A active balancer, that can be set for the right values.

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[treblid]

I prefer to build one from scratch, and have full control of my chosen bms. I went with JK bms that has a 2A active balancer, that can be set for the right values.

I did the same.

 

[OldAgeTravellers]

The cells the self maybe very reliable but BMS's sometimes have a hissy fit.

It would be nice to know what the failures were like, perhaps RogerIvy could comment From his experience.
Looking at his website 3x105’s = £1107, 1x300 = £850, 2x230 = £1400 so if going for redundancy the 2x230’s would be less space, weight wise 1x300 would be best money-wise.
I think I am leaning towards 1x300 and buy a cheap starter battery to get home if the worst happens. I would then get a bit of my locker back and more space in the locker to fit the B2B and if necessary a new mains charger.
I think I am leaning towards Fogstar as well because of the emergency heater as my Battery compartment is outside.

 

[RogerIvy]

It would be nice to know what the failures were like, perhaps RogerIvy could comment From his experience.

The cells are almost never the problem if you buy grade A EVE, Lishen or CATL cells. We've only ever had one problem with an Eve cells that arrived leaking electrolyte. I got some on my hands, sprinted to a tap and washed off then went to warm basin and washed with Fairy about three times!
In the vast majority of cases it's:

1. BMS fault. In the old days of Daly BMS support was a bit of a nightmare. Maybe around 3% failure. Now with JK and JBD it's so much better. But they do sometimes fail, maybe 1% or so? Maybe less.
2. Bad QC. I heard of a relatively well known brand burn an overlander - thought to be a loose non on a terminal (i.e. finger tight and missed by the torque wrench).
3. Badly crimped balance leads are also an issue - mostly with DIY batteries.
4. Structural damage caused during shipping is also an issue. A 25kg lump, if dropped outright, causes things to shift and break internally. No amount of "Fragile" stickers help.

I think I am leaning towards Fogstar as well because of the emergency heater as my Battery compartment is outside.

For an outside locker it's a no-brainer ... Fogstar.
If it was me I'd also consider some sort of insulation around the battery - in winter it could take ages to heat the battery up after it's frozen. You might find that as it gets warm enough to resume charging the sun then goes down. Even bubble wrap is better than nothing ... as long as you can open it up in summer for cooling.
Basically give the heating pads less work to do.

 

[OldAgeTravellers]

Than

The cells are almost never the problem if you buy grade A EVE, Lishen or CATL cells. We've only ever had one problem with an Eve cells that arrived leaking electrolyte. I got some on my hands, sprinted to a tap and washed off then went to warm basin and washed with Fairy about three times!
In the vast majority of cases it's:

1. BMS fault. In the old days of Daly BMS support was a bit of a nightmare. Maybe around 3% failure. Now with JK and JBD it's so much better. But they do sometimes fail, maybe 1% or so? Maybe less.
2. Bad QC. I heard of a relatively well known brand burn an overlander - thought to be a loose non on a terminal (i.e. finger tight and missed by the torque wrench).
3. Badly crimped balance leads are also an issue - mostly with DIY batteries.
4. Structural damage caused during shipping is also an issue. A 25kg lump, if dropped outright, causes things to shift and break internally. No amount of "Fragile" stickers help.

For an outside locker it's a no-brainer ... Fogstar.
If it was me I'd also consider some sort of insulation around the battery - in winter it could take ages to heat the battery up after it's frozen. You might find that as it gets warm enough to resume charging the sun then goes down. Even bubble wrap is better than nothing ... as long as you can open it up in summer for cooling.
Basically give the heating pads less work to do.

Thanks Roger, great info. I think from that I will go with the 300 Fogstar and take a chance on being unlucky with a failure. My battery compartment does have a small heating feed from the Trauma when it is operating to heat us. But a couple of inches of Kingspan in the winter would be easy to do and extend the heating pipe into it. Probably best to use something different on the top so the foil doesn’t shield the bluetooth.
I am on the ferry now so will measure the amount of cable and fuses I need ASAP and add the battery etc to my existing order.
Thanks to all for the help with the decision.

 

[TrudeandDall]

The cells are almost never the problem if you buy grade A EVE, Lishen or CATL cells. We've only ever had one problem with an Eve cells that arrived leaking electrolyte. I got some on my hands, sprinted to a tap and washed off then went to warm basin and washed with Fairy about three times!
In the vast majority of cases it's:

1. BMS fault. In the old days of Daly BMS support was a bit of a nightmare. Maybe around 3% failure. Now with JK and JBD it's so much better. But they do sometimes fail, maybe 1% or so? Maybe less.
2. Bad QC. I heard of a relatively well known brand burn an overlander - thought to be a loose non on a terminal (i.e. finger tight and missed by the torque wrench).
3. Badly crimped balance leads are also an issue - mostly with DIY batteries.
4. Structural damage caused during shipping is also an issue. A 25kg lump, if dropped outright, causes things to shift and break internally. No amount of "Fragile" stickers help.

For an outside locker it's a no-brainer ... Fogstar.
If it was me I'd also consider some sort of insulation around the battery - in winter it could take ages to heat the battery up after it's frozen. You might find that as it gets warm enough to resume charging the sun then goes down. Even bubble wrap is better than nothing ... as long as you can open it up in summer for cooling.
Basically give the heating pads less work to do.

I've been watching this with interest, sharing info like this is a great MH Fun feature!
I opted for a 230 seat base from a well known UK camper battery supplier. It arrived with very low voltage, basically one cell short - probably 2 or 4 from Rogers list.
The timing was not good, as due to the festive season holidays it took 2 weeks to collect and return and then I was looking at an unknown timeline to inspect and fix/replace etc. It would have been better customer service, especially considering that the battery was a four figure investment that arrived unserviceable, to have sent out a replacement straight away. But I respect at that time that the batteries were in short supply, with a couple of months waiting time..
I opted for a refund and doubled up my newish 95ah AGM to give me instant supply and redundancy. This works fine for me, but I am forward planning to replace with Lithium when the AGM die or I need a bit more capacity - likely to be the second reason. I also do not have the luxury of a big habitation seat area for two batteries, they have to fit into the two front seats bases, one of which also has all of the 12v electrical stuff taking up a bit of space.
So, redundancy or not for me is a thing I am interested in, at the moment a single 280/300ah in the passenger seat base seems the best compromise for cost and space needed...

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[OldAgeTravellers]

I suppose one of these Heat Mats connected via a smart plug at home to switch on if the temperature goes really low or to switch on the night before a trip could be worthwhile so as to be at the best temperature from the off when going away in winter. It could be controlled by Alexa if you have one and your MoHo is within your wifi range.

 

[Pausim]

I worry about some of these internal battery heaters. The original low temperature batteries powered the heaters from the incoming charge only but some of them now appear to use internal stored power. If the battery detects a small incoming charge that turns on the heaters you could use more charge than is gained and flatten the battery. The circumstances I am thinking of is a short burst solar that triggers the heaters but then along comes a cloud, you have a warm battery but not enough charge to replace the power used heating the battery.

 

[Lenny HB]

I worry about some of these internal battery heaters. The original low temperature batteries powered the heaters from the incoming charge only but some of them now appear to use internal stored power.

In the Fogstar the heater runs from the charger and won't let the battery charge until it is up to temperature.

 

[Raul]

I worry about some of these internal battery heaters. The original low temperature batteries powered the heaters from the incoming charge only but some of them now appear to use internal stored power. If the battery detects a small incoming charge that turns on the heaters you could use more charge than is gained and flatten the battery. The circumstances I am thinking of is a short burst solar that triggers the heaters but then along comes a cloud, you have a warm battery but not enough charge to replace the power used heating the battery.

Most heaters fed by the charge current, it will only work on above 2A, and switch off if current decreases.