Leisure battery replacement... Upgrade and advice please?

[The3mens]

I have a 2013 Auto Trail Savannah, E500 Sargent control panel and charger, 1 solar panel (Think it's 100w) and running 2 x 95ah lead acid leisure batteries.
and am based near Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire.

My two Leisure batteries are finally giving up after 3 years hard labour and many charges.
looking for advice.
(and for reference, I would not feel comfortable/competent doing any electrical upgrades myself.......)

Do I upgrade to Lithium

At the NEC yesterday and I asked a few stands to price a lithium set up.

Cheapest quote was £1200
280ah battery £699.00 (Recommended, but variable as could go for smaller size ah)
Victron charger £250.00 (As Sargent unit would not work?)
Labour £250.00
should be good for 10 years+ much better power, allowing longer off grid but does seem very pricey.

Or do I just replace the current Lead Acid Batteries
2 x 95ah £300.00
but will need changing in 3 years (£400?) and then again 3 years later (£500?)

Can't be sure I'll own the Savannah in 10 years time (already 12 years old) so concerned I'm spending money I don't need to, but it could be a good selling point for new owners!

All help and advice greatly appreciated.

Mark

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

I would just replace the batteries with 2 x100ah lithium circa £150 each and a new lithium compatible solar controller and connect direct to the batteries bypassing the Sargent controller. Also look to adding another 100w panel or changing to at least 1 x180w or size to suit the space you have available.

 

[Tombola]

I notice no mention of a new mppt solar controller...do you already have one.

I changed my autotrail from leads and Sargent to lithium and victron, with the solar controller,and battery charger, was easy enough.
I don't think that price quoted is tooooo bad if you let us know name and type of lithium battery.

The price of lithium and the likes of fogstar have dropped a lot lately though.

Don't forget to ask them about changing or disabling the split charge relay if it has one so as not to cause a loop charge. Sometimes they are linked in withe the step relay and or fridge on the later autotrails

 

[The3mens]

I notice no mention of a new mppt solar controller...do you already have one.

I changed my autotrail from leads and Sargent to lithium and victron, with the solar controller,and battery charger, was easy enough.
I don't think that price quoted is tooooo bad if you let us know name and type of lithium battery.

The price of lithium and the likes of fogstar have dropped a lot lately though.

Don't forget to ask them about changing or disabling the split charge relay if it has one so as not to cause a loop charge. Sometimes they are linked in withe the step relay and or fridge on the later autotrails

Thanks for your reply, I freely admit I do not understand electrics (and they scare me whit less) so am completely at the mercy of whoever does the installation should I go down this route, I am leaning towards just replacing the batteries like for like but thought I would ask first?

 

[Tombola]

Thanks for your reply, I freely admit I do not understand electrics (and they scare me whit less) so am completely at the mercy of whoever does the installation should I go down this route, I am leaning towards just replacing the batteries like for like but thought I would ask first?

Lithium is better esp if you spend time off grid, more.power, less weight. And the costs nowadays are almost in parity with others.
Initial problems of course are lithium compatibal3 chargers etc but once it's done its done.

If your leads have served you well and you don't need to upgrade then only you can answer that tbh.

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[ChrisL]

Offgrid Power Solutions will give you a 10% discount on supply or supply and fit and will give you excellent advice on what you absolutely need and what you can get away with, speak to RogerIvy who is a member on here.

 

[GeoffnDee]

If it helps www.sargentltd.co.uk have, in their Support section , information regarding the use of lithium batteries with the EC500 PSU and its charging system.

 

[PlacidoD]

I am approaching 1 year into ownership but had to fit a new leisure battery whilst still very green last year. I did lots of reading but it was just too soon in my ownership and state of knowledge and so replaced like for like but I now have the knowledge to have a plan in the event of further leisure battery failure.

1. You are not comparing like with like. Your current batteries have half of 190 Ah available for you to use (Your systems will likely shut them off when they get to 50%.). So a 100Ah lithium will give you the same amount of useable juice as you can run that to empty without damage. 280 Ah will give you almost exactly 3 x your current useable capacity.

2. A system with a circa 100Ah lithium battery requires little in the way of component upgrade and thus additional cost

3. Once you are up to the likes of 280Ah most components require upgrading to give you the best results (Though they can perhaps be done sequentially after that which is essential)

4. On a circa 100Ah system you really need one component with a high enough input voltage and lithium profile to charge fully to to 100Ah. Other components will charge to e.g 90%. Long term that is not good for the battery. There needs to be one component charging to 100%.

5. The one component that many say it is dangerous not to replace on a 100Ah system is to replace the split relay charger with a DC to DC charger (also commonly called a B2B). You want a 12-12/30 but likely will be better off with a 12-12/50 from Victron to allow for future upgrade (and because the Victron 50 dissipates heat much better).

6. To do a "bells and whistles" lithium upgrade requires:
B2B - £180-250
Mains Charger - circa £250
Solar charger - £??
2nd solar panel (or more) - £??
A pure sine wave inverter of at least 1000W output - £500
(My figures on the B2B may be a little high - Maybe £145-£225)

7. You are best off with quality components with bluetooth apps for all of the above plus your lithium batteries

8. There is zero point in having 280Ah of juice if it takes days of normal use to charge to that capacity. Hence the need to upgrade other components. On a minimalist system a couple of hours driving should fill your 100Ah battery from empty (assuming a 12-12/50 and zero solar input)

That is enough to digest in one post!!

 

[Gary S]

I've only just bought my first van and had always planned a lithium upgrade, due to our plans for longer trips abroad and off grid use.

I had a quote from the dealer of a van I was looking at, and the cost for a fairly mediocre set up was eye watering, so spent a lot of time researching other options.

About the same time I came across this site, I discovered Offgrid Power Solutions and fast forward 6 months, having found the van (privately at a really good price), it's going in to OPS next week for a lithium upgrade.

I'm very aware of the risk I'm taking by spending a not insignificant sum, without having much experience of using my new purchase a great deal.

The motorhome came with a Truma hab air con unit and Gaslow already fitted, so while I may not have gone for the aircon myself, I'd have definitely paid to upgrade to Gaslow, and this helps with my slightly fickle justification of the cost!

After spending quite a bit of time speaking to Roger, I'm going for the following set up:

• 2 x 280ah Fogstar Drift
• Increase solar panels to 450w, plus additional portable 220w panel
• Multiplus 3kva
• Orion XS
• Cerbo GX - with gaslow tank sensors
• 2 x MPPT
• smart shunt

I realise i could have gone for a cheaper system and saved on batteries and other components, but my view is that you have to listen to the experts.

Even with the funsters discount, it's still quite an investment, but I guess once you factor in the after-sales support and confidence an expert install brings, its still a lot of money, but at least I know what I'm getting.

 

[JJ]

My advice (which will definitely go against the grain with most folk on here) is to replace your current batteries with the exact same size, type and capacity (and only when they actually stop doing their job) assuming that they have done you okay for the last few years.

Lithium batteries are the latest "thing" and I am CERTAIN that lots of folk only change to them because of this fad, never mind if they really need to or not...

Lithium batteries are a definite (but expensive) upgrade for folk who use their vans frequently all year around but I suspect many motorhomers don't need them.

Might I suggest you use the money saved to buy tickets to see Ossie Osborne, Metallica, Slayer, Slash and the rest of the boys at the Villa Park Stadium...

...What a line up!

JJ

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[The3mens]

If it helps www.sargentltd.co.uk have, in their Support section , information regarding the use of lithium batteries with the EC500 PSU and its charging system.

Just spoken to Sargent and they are sending me the tech info, great call thanks.

 

[The3mens]

I am approaching 1 year into ownership but had to fit a new leisure battery whilst still very green last year. I did lots of reading but it was just too soon in my ownership and state of knowledge and so replaced like for like but I now have the knowledge to have a plan in the event of further leisure battery failure.

1. You are not comparing like with like. Your current batteries have half of 190 Ah available for you to use (Your systems will likely shut them off when they get to 50%.). So a 100Ah lithium will give you the same amount of useable juice as you can run that to empty without damage. 280 Ah will give you almost exactly 3 x your current useable capacity.

2. A system with a circa 100Ah lithium battery requires little in the way of component upgrade and thus additional cost

3. Once you are up to the likes of 280Ah most components require upgrading to give you the best results (Though they can perhaps be done sequentially after that which is essential)

4. On a circa 100Ah system you really need one component with a high enough input voltage and lithium profile to charge fully to to 100Ah. Other components will charge to e.g 90%. Long term that is not good for the battery. There needs to be one component charging to 100%.

5. The one component that many say it is dangerous not to replace on a 100Ah system is to replace the split relay charger with a DC to DC charger (also commonly called a B2B). You want a 12-12/30 but likely will be better off with a 12-12/50 from Victron to allow for future upgrade (and because the Victron 50 dissipates heat much better).

6. To do a "bells and whistles" lithium upgrade requires:
B2B - £180-250
Mains Charger - circa £250
Solar charger - £??
2nd solar panel (or more) - £??
A pure sine wave inverter of at least 1000W output - £500
(My figures on the B2B may be a little high - Maybe £145-£225)

7. You are best off with quality components with bluetooth apps for all of the above plus your lithium batteries

8. There is zero point in having 280Ah of juice if it takes days of normal use to charge to that capacity. Hence the need to upgrade other components. On a minimalist system a couple of hours driving should fill your 100Ah battery from empty (assuming a 12-12/50 and zero solar input)

That is enough to digest in one post!!

wow, thanks for the info,
I've spoken to Sargent who believe a like for like (as you suggested) I might get away with a b2b charger and a single Lithium battery (Speak to battery supplier for compatibility) again, thanks

 

[The3mens]

My advice (which will definitely go against the grain with most folk on here) is to replace your current batteries with the exact same size, type and capacity (and only when they actually stop doing their job) assuming that they have done you okay for the last few years.

Lithium batteries are the latest "thing" and I am CERTAIN that lots of folk only change to them because of this fad, never mind if they really need to or not...

Lithium batteries are a definite (but expensive) upgrade for folk who use their vans frequently all year around but I suspect many motorhomers don't need them.

Might I suggest you use the money saved to buy tickets to see Ossie Osborne, Metallica, Slayer, Slash and the rest of the boys at the Villa Park Stadium...

...What a line up!

JJ

Fully get your reply (and it's a bloody good line-up!) and initially my response was exactly that, but the attraction of just getting a b2b and lithium battery for not such a major outlay will make it more cost effective in the long run. Thanks

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

wow, thanks for the info,
I've spoken to Sargent who believe a like for like (as you suggested) I might get away with a b2b charger and a single Lithium battery (Speak to battery supplier for compatibility) again, thanks

As PlacidoD says, you don’t need to go the full hog and replace everything. Lithium batteries will provide almost double the usable stored capacity as lead acid, so 200ah of lithium would be double what you have at present, a 280ah lithium may be similar cost to 2x 100. The DC-DC charger would replace the current split-charge system you have at present.

As others have suggested, contact RogerIvy at Off Grid for sensible advice and installation options.