Leisure batteries not charging while engine is running

[Alpine2938]

Hi we have a 26month old Hymer b780 MLi so out of warranty, problem we have is the leisure batteries are not getting charged when the engine is running but they charge perfectly ok on hook up.
The unit controlling this is an ELB400 and i believe a relay is fitted in this unit to control the charging.
When the engine is running the fridge senses its running and switches to battery ok but after a three day trip back from Spain the leisure batteries were flat and we have three batteries fitted one being a Lithium one.
Has anyone else had this problem as any help would be appreciated.

 

[Alpine2938]

Follow up, unit fitted is EBL400 and not ELB

 

[autorouter]

For the leisure battery to charge from the engine alternator, several things need to be working. First check the 50A fuse next to the starter battery. This supplies the main charging amps from the alternator to the EBL.

There is a 50A fuse next to the leisure battery also. However if that has blown none of your habitation circuits would work, and you haven't reported that so I assume it's OK. Another thing that needs to be working is the 'D+' (engine running) signal that tells the EBL that the engine is running. However I presume this is working, because it also switches the fridge over to 12V when the engine is running.

 

[Alpine2938]

Thank you for the information, my next step was to check around the vehicle battery as we have just had self leveling fitted and that is connected direct to the vehicle battery so its possible something has been missed when connecting up, this problem could of also been since new as we have always had electric hook up and never been driving for any great length of time until this last trip, will let you know the outcome.

 

[Lenny HB]

Your van will have a Smart Alternator, so do you have a B2B, Hymer didn't always fit them on some models, without one your battery won't charge properly.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Alpine2938]

Hi Just checked and it is fitted with a WA121545 which i believe is 45amp

 

[autorouter]

Hi Just checked and it is fitted with a WA121545 which i believe is 45amp

Yes, anything from 45A to 70A depending on the settings and the relative voltages of the alternator and the leisure battery.

First thing to note is, when the engine is running and the leisure battery is not fully charged, which of the four lower left LEDs is lit? Bulk, Absorption, Float or Error?

First check the 50A fuse next to the starter battery.

With a WA121545 the fuse is bigger, more like 70A or even more perhaps. It's on the wire going to the WA121545 input.

And are you sure it's an EBL400? I can't find a manual for that one, but I can find one for the LT400 control panel.

 

[Alpine2938]

Batteries are fully charged at the moment so will run them down a bit and check the LEDs and it is an EBL400, i have looked and i cant find any info on it either, and true to form Hymer have issued me with a manual featuring an EBL30 (not much use)

 

[autorouter]

it is an EBL400, i have looked and i cant find any info on it either, and true to form Hymer have issued me with a manual featuring an EBL30 (not much use)

Does the EBL30 look much different? Maybe you could post a picture of the front of the EBL400, so at least we can see what it supposed to look like.

 

[RobinE]

I had a faulty WA121545 fitted to our 2021 Hymer. It is possible you have the same problem. Everything looked OK, charge coming in from the alternator all lights on as expected, but nowt going out to the leisure battery. I sent it to Appuljack Electronics for diagnosis and repair, they diagnosed as not repairable. due to water damage. and I eventually got it replaced under warranty. It is a plug and play unit so easy to remove and replace.
Appuljack could have supplied a new one for about, £500, double that from Hymer.
VanBitz told me it was not working otherwise I would have struggled to know what was wrong.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Alpine2938]

Does the EBL30 look much different? Maybe you could post a picture of the front of the EBL400, so at least we can see what it supposed to look like.

 

[Alpine2938]

Have managed to run the leisure batteries down a bit so when the engine is started the error light is flashing on WA121545 also on the two large plugs fitted with the thick cables is one from vehicle battery and one from the leisure batteries

 

[RobinE]

It maybe worth looking at manual to identify the error, I found it here
-Broken Link Removed-
Yes the thick cables come from the engine alternator and go the leisure battery.

 

[autorouter]

The EBL400 looks very similar to the EBL420. There is a wiring diagram in the WA121545 manual, Fig 7.2, that is probably the method used to wirw the B2B in with the batteries and EBL

Since you say in Post #4 that the wiring to the starter battery may have been disturbed, maybe start there.and check that the thick wire from the starter battery positive, via a 70A fuse, to the WA121546 starter battery input is in place and functioning. Then check the thick wire from the output of the WA121545 to the big EBL terminal block (marked 'SB') is also OK. If the installation is using a different diagram then that second wire might be wired differently, so at least we will know.

 

[Alpine2938]

I have checked the starter battery connections to WA121545 and they are connected as the voltage rises to 14.5v when the engine is started, the D+ signal is also in place at the booster, have not got round to checking the output wire yet as it is under the EBL and not very accessable

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Alpine2938]

For your info i have managed to find details on the EBL400 and have attached them for your use

 

[Alpine2938]

Follow up, i have checked the impedance between the +ve starter battery connection from WA121545 to the +ve connection on Leisure battery and when the engine is running i have 3ohms which to me seems as if the relay in the EBL is working, does anyone think the problem is down to a faulty WA121545 or can i do any other checks.

 

[Alpine2938]

Also can anyone tell me what the small unit is connected to the WA121545, 3wires connected to starter battery +ve and Leisure battery output
all it has written on is battery master

 

[headlight]

It so

Also can anyone tell me what the small unit is connected to the WA121545, 3wires connected to starter battery +ve and Leisure battery output
all it has written on is battery master

It sounds like a Vanbitz Battery Master.
It trickle charges the starter battery from the leisure battery when it senses iirc that the starter battery is 0.5v lower than the leisure battery.
It stops the starter battery going flat when the van is parked up not being used.

 

[Alpine2938]

Thanks for that info have just found it online and it is vanbitz

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[autorouter]

I have checked the starter battery connections to WA121545 and they are connected as the voltage rises to 14.5v when the engine is started,

You can double-check this by removing the 50A (70A?) fuse next to the starter battery. The voltage on the WA121545 input should go to about zero.

With the fuse back in place, the voltage of the leisure battery should rise to about 14.5V when the engine is running. The same leisure battery voltage should be measurable at the WA121545 output terminals too. The WA121545 LEDs should show the state as either bulk, absorption or float. Not 'error'. It should continue to show one of the 3 charge states as long as the engine is running, even after many hours. If it shows 'error' then maybe it's a settings problem. Or possibly a fault.

Note that the starter battery voltage will rise to about 14.5V when the engine first starts running, as the alternator refills the starter battery. At some point the smart alternator dials down the voltage to about 12.5V, so the starter battery voltage drops too. however the WA121545 output voltage to the leisure battery should stay up at about 14.5V until the leisure battery is full, at which point it drops to about 13.5V (float voltage. And while this is happening, the LEDs should show one of the charge states, not 'error'.

 

[Ian Bosman]

For the leisure battery to charge from the engine alternator, several things need to be working. First check the 50A fuse next to the starter battery. This supplies the main charging amps from the alternator to the EBL.

There is a 50A fuse next to the leisure battery also. However if that has blown none of your habitation circuits would work, and you haven't reported that so I assume it's OK. Another thing that needs to be working is the 'D+' (engine running) signal that tells the EBL that the engine is running. However I presume this is working, because it also switches the fridge over to 12V when the engine is running.

my Elddis which was the replacement for the Euramobil does not charge the leisure battery according to the book from Elddis and the battery charger does not charge the engine. Both are the opposite of the Euramobil,so over the inter when we do not use it i will have to invest in a separate charger for the engine battery, unless someone can tell me how to change it

 

[autorouter]

my Elddis which was the replacement for the Euramobil does not charge the leisure battery according to the book from Elddis and the battery charger does not charge the engine. Both are the opposite of the Euramobil,so over the inter when we do not use it i will have to invest in a separate charger for the engine battery, unless someone can tell me how to change it

Are you sure the leisure battery isn't charged from the alternator when the engine is running? No split charge relay and no B2B charger? If that's true then I think the best thing to do is install a B2B charger for the smart alternator to charge the leisure battery. Then install a battery maintainer like the BatteryMaster, which will trickle-charge the starter battery from the leisure battery, to keep it topped up.

Starter batteries don't usually need much charge, they are charged from the alternator. Just a trickle to stop them going flat over a few weeks.

 

[chrometeeth]

Ignore the fact that it is out of warranty. Consumer rights act of 2015 ,states any product should last a reasonable amount of time and should be fit for purpose. On a van that's costs well over £100,000 pounds , it should last more than 26 months. Go back to dealer.,NOT manufacturer, and tell them to sort it out . Don't let them fob you off with ,it's out of warranty,the consumer rights act is a law and overrules it.

 

[Robert P]

We had this problem. The starter battery and hab batteries all charged correctly from EHU and roof panels but not from the alternator when we were driving. Long story short: it wasn't fancy electronics but a corroded earthing strap. But not an obvious one. It was a whacking great thing a few feet long. The garage found it after a few hours study by checking where there was a resistance in the circuit. All charging worked fine since new one fitted.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Ian Bosman]

I have an Elddis 2015 Autoquest which does not charge the hab battery from the alternators how do i wire up the system to be able to do it? Do i need a "smart alternator" (expensive) or simply go down the tugger route of a relay which is then wired up to the hab battery?will t his work as a sort of B2B?

 

[autorouter]

I have an Elddis 2015 Autoquest which does not charge the hab battery from the alternators how do i wire up the system to be able to do it? Do i need a "smart alternator" (expensive) or simply go down the tugger route of a relay which is then wired up to the hab battery?will t his work as a sort of B2B?

The basic problem is that newer vehicles now have a smart alternator. It can switch itself on and off so that it doesn't load the engine so much, and uses less fuel. It can keep the starter battery just charged enough to start the engine, but not fully charged. As far as the vehicle manufacturer is concerned, less fuel used, starter still works, problem solved.

However if a motorhome leisure battery is connected to the starter battery using a split charge relay, it will get the same treatment as the starter battery, ie it will not be fully charged. Even worse, if it starts off fully charged from a hookup, it will lose charge to the starter battery and other vehicle systems until its voltage is low enough to turn the smart alternator on again. That's why a split charge relay won't work.

So a motorhome converter needs to fit a B2B, which will definitely charge a leisure battery fully, from the smart alternator. Alternatively the converter can not fit anything, and tell the customer to charge the leisure battery from hookup mains, or solar panels. I imagine they keep very quiet about such a cheapskate stunt.

So if you want to charge the leisure battery from a smart alternator you need to have a B2B fitted. A split charge relay won't work.

 

[Ian Bosman]

The basic problem is that newer vehicles now have a smart alternator. It can switch itself on and off so that it doesn't load the engine so much, and uses less fuel. It can keep the starter battery just charged enough to start the engine, but not fully charged. As far as the vehicle manufacturer is concerned, less fuel used, starter still works, problem solved.

However if a motorhome leisure battery is connected to the starter battery using a split charge relay, it will get the same treatment as the starter battery, ie it will not be fully charged. Even worse, if it starts off fully charged from a hookup, it will lose charge to the starter battery and other vehicle systems until its voltage is low enough to turn the smart alternator on again. That's why a split charge relay won't work.

So a motorhome converter needs to fit a B2B, which will definitely charge a leisure battery fully, from the smart alternator. Alternatively the converter can not fit anything, and tell the customer to charge the leisure battery from hookup mains, or solar panels. I imagine they keep very quiet about such a cheapskate stunt.

So if you want to charge the leisure battery from a smart alternator you need to have a B2B fitted. A split charge relay won't work.

what if the alternator is not a smart one?

 

[Ian Bosman]

btw can any one tell what this is on my peugeot base vehicle?

 

[autorouter]

what if the alternator is not a smart one?

If it's a standard (non-smart) alternator I find it difficult to believe that a branded manufactured motorhome will not charge the leisure battery while the engine is running. All the usual distribution/fuseboxes that are fitted to these motorhomes have a split charge relay built in, so it's easier to have the charging than to try and stop the charging. The only reason I know of for not charging the leisure battery while driving is the smart alternator problem.

However if it is in fact true, then either a split charge relay or a B2B charger will enable charging while driving. A B2B gives better and more controlled charging than a split charge relay, but costs more. A B2B is a good idea if the leisure battery type is not the same as the starter battery.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}