Lead Carbon Batteries

[gilbaro]

Has anyone got any up to date experience of these batteries. I know there's a thread about 3 to 4 years ago but time and technology move on.
Our van is 2015 Elddis Majestic based on 2.2 Peugeot so no smart alternator.
Currently have single 105ah leisure battery with 100w solar.
We have limited budget but want to start upgrade process.
I am thinking lithium out of question due to cost for batteries, b2b, mains charger etc.
I am considering 2 x approx 105ah lead carbon batteries
and have been advised Quasar but there are other makes.
So advice and experiences would be welcome.
Van is not on ehu when not being used but coped last winter on solar plus regular run outs.
Sorry to go on at length!

 

[Two on Tour]

Has anyone got any up to date experience of these batteries. I know there's a thread about 3 to 4 years ago but time and technology move on.
Our van is 2015 Elddis Majestic based on 2.2 Peugeot so no smart alternator.
Currently have single 105ah leisure battery with 100w solar.
We have limited budget but want to start upgrade process.
I am thinking lithium out of question due to cost for batteries, b2b, mains charger etc.
I am considering 2 x approx 105ah lead carbon batteries
and have been advised Quasar but there are other makes.
So advice and experiences would be welcome.
Van is not on ehu when not being used but coped last winter on solar plus regular run outs.
Sorry to go on at length!

ChrisL has experience of lead carbon not being up to the job.

 

[ChrisL]

I wouldn't waste my money on lead carbon gel batteries again, I bought three for my Hymer wired in parallel, from Alpha Batteries, they didn't last three years and the five year guarantee wasn't worth the paper it was written on. All charging sources were setup as per the spec, and according to the Victron shunt they were never discharged below 50% capacity. Since then I asked Offgrid Power Solutions to supply and fit a 230ah Fogstar drift, which so far has been great, they made a nice job of it and gave me a Fun discount as well, the lithium battery charges really fast and the voltage stays consistent until it's nearly flat. Speak to RogerIvy or nigelivy and explain your requirements, they will give you advice without a hard sell.

 

[AdrianChen]

If lead carbon Gel, I think a smaller lithium might work out cheaper. I would get some prices/quotes (Offgrid Power Solutions as per ChrisL). Right now there are some good offers around.

 

[gilbaro]

Presumably I would have update charging set up b2b, mains etc?
What's the score for a vehicle without smart alternator?

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[ChrisL]

If lead carbon Gel, I think a smaller lithium might work out cheaper. I would get some prices/quotes (Offgrid Power Solutions as per ChrisL). Right now there are some good offers around.

It's worth remembering that if you only have a 105ah battery now that is only 50ah usable capacity, a 60ah lithium would give you the same capacity but more of it would be usable because there is less voltage sag under load.
Edit: with regard to charging sources you may be able to keep most of what you already have, speak to Offgrid, they really are nice people and really know their stuff.

 

[AdrianChen]

Presumably I would have update charging set up b2b, mains etc?
What's the score for a vehicle without smart alternator?

If I didn't want any more capacity because we mainly used EHU, because of the price of decent Gels, I would add a single 100ah Lithium for around £200. The existing charger may not be perfect for these, but will work on a LA setting, a small VictronIP 20 amp would be a perfect charger at around £140. This is the bit that would be key for me, because at least some of the time the battery needs to get fully charged so it can cell balance.

If there is no B2B the small battery would be no stress to the alternator or battery, as long as you don't do many very long drives, or sit with the engine on tickover for long periods.

If the solar controler has no Lithium profile, just use an LA setting, again not perfect but will work.

Often you hear that everything needs to be changed for lithium, but for a smallish battery I don't think it is essential. I would though if installing 200ah or more.

Worth having a chat with a decent provider - Offgrid Power Solutions......

 

[Pausim]

I would look again at LiFePO4 compared to lead carbon. The charging needs of both are very similar 14.4-14.6V so the overall upgrade process is unlikely to be very different between the two types.

Using Alpha battery prices and specs there isn't a great difference in the purchase prices between the battery types. 2 x 105Ah lead carbon will cost £340 and give you a useable 105Ah or £3.24 per Ah. 1 x 135Ah LiFePO4 will cost £400 and give you a useable 108Ah or £3.70 per Ah. OK the lead carbon is a bit cheaper but the LiFePO4 will give you about double the life. The Li only weighs 19kg compared to other 2 batteries weighing in at 56kg. You will also get away with discharging the Li below 80% from time to time without noticeable degradation, take the Carbons below 50% a few times and you may well have problems.

 

[RogerIvy]

Just to add to what Pausim wrote, I’ve tried and experimented with a bunch of chemistries and to me nothing comes close to LiFePO4 when real performance is required. The energy density is great, and inverters love LiFePO4.
One of the big advantages of LiFePO4 is the fact that all the reputable batteries have good BMSs which helps immensely. Basically fit and forget if you want.

I’ve personally not come across anyone that regretted the investment in lithium. I’ve sure they are out there, but I suspect they are few and far between. I’ve come across a bunch of people that regretted lead acid, gel, AGM and lead carbon. In particular those that eventually install a reasonably capable inverter will often regret their decision to stick with their non-lithium batteries. One chap was telling me that he’s pleased that when drawing 40A on his boat his lead carbon doesn’t drop below 12.3 (whereas his lead acids used to drop further), but he doesn’t dare run a big inverter as the voltage drop would be bigger. He said if he bought a new boat it would have to have lithium. Another customer on a canal boat called to tell me he’s ditching the lead carbon and buying a 2nd lithium (he uses a hybrid system).

One of the big regrets with lead carbon is the weight. They are so heavy for the amount of storage you get.
And yes I know the initial purchase is cheaper, but after about 3-5 years that advantage is wiped out when their performance drops and you have to replace it. Lead carbon is meant to have a longer life than lead acid (or more cycles) and I think for the most part this is true but it’s still nothing like lithium.

If lithium wasn’t available to me I’d probably go lead carbon, but luckily that’s not the case.

 

[Captain Yoghurtpot]

If I didn't want any more capacity because we mainly used EHU, because of the price of decent Gels, I would add a single 100ah Lithium for around £200. The existing charger may not be perfect for these, but will work on a LA setting, a small VictronIP 20 amp would be a perfect charger at around £140. This is the bit that would be key for me, because at least some of the time the battery needs to get fully charged so it can cell balance.

If there is no B2B the small battery would be no stress to the alternator or battery, as long as you don't do many very long drives, or sit with the engine on tickover for long periods.

If the solar controler has no Lithium profile, just use an LA setting, again not perfect but will work.

Often you hear that everything needs to be changed for lithium, but for a smallish battery I don't think it is essential. I would though if installing 200ah or more.

Worth having a chat with a decent provider - Offgrid Power Solutions......

Or perhaps consider a portable powerbank?

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[wfdTamar]

I don't know why Chris's lead carbon gels failed. If what he says is right (and I have no reason to doubt it) they shouldn't have. He wasn't pushing them too hard? Battery monitor was calibrated correctly? (though 3 batteries should be able to handle a decent load). I'd be interested too know as they seem like a good option if you don't want to go for lithium.

Anyway I have one of these (what Chris had) in my Hymer and it's been fine for 2 seasons (I do 4 months over summer each year). I don't push it very hard and keep it well charged all the time, so maybe not a real stress test of them.

12V 110AH Expedition Plus Lead Carbon Gel Ultra Deep Cycle Battery (EXP12-110C) - Alpha Batteries

Ultra Deep Cycle Lead Carbon GEL Battery

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

I don't know which batteries Pausim is using for calculations, but both lithium & lead carbon gel can go down to 20% and can cost a similar amount. It is the potential charger replacement lithium requires that makes the difference.

LITHIUM
In the same Hymer I also have 2x100Ah lithium not connected to the normal Hymer leisure system. They run the compressor fridge, TV and charging devices, as well as an air fryer and I'm trying a coffee machine (a cheap pod one which makes rubbish coffee). However with 200Ah or more of lithium you can run lower power (like under 2000 watt) mains devices.

In my other Hymer I've put in a 626Ah lithium and big inverter. I can run what I like in that. I installed B2B chargers in both Hymers and lithium capable chargers. I can DIY it so not so expensive to do. With a decent amount of solar and a B2B charger I have no trouble charging and never need EHU.


ALTERNATIVE
You could try the more conventional gel batteries which are tried and tested. These, although only 80Ah, are highly regarded and would last a long time. With two of them you'd have 128Ah usable capacity. But £400 of batteries is a fair bit if you're not going lithium.

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/80-ah-exide-g80-gel-deep-cycle-leisure-battery/

I would be interested to know what settings your 2015 motorhome has in its chargers. You may already be ok for lithium, but I would be considering more solar and a B2B at least.

 

[AdrianChen]

Or perhaps consider a portable powerbank?

Or perhaps consider a portable powerbank?

The hypothetical scenario for that response was as a replacement leisure battery, so probably not, however I agree that there are many instances were those can be a great solution.

 

[Pausim]

I don't know which batteries Pausim is using for calculations, but both lithium & lead carbon gel can go down to 20% and can cost a similar amount. It is the potential charger replacement lithium requires that makes the difference.

I used the Leoch 105Ah carbon battery because the op was thinking of buying 2 x 105Ah carbon batteries. The figures given were a cycle life of 1300 at 50%. Yes you can go below 50% but that will reduce the cycle life to less than 1300. Most LiFePO4 makers and distributors are happy with using gel chargers so I can’t see why there should be a cost difference. Undercharging gel batteries does more damage than undercharging LiFePO4 which do not get damaged.

 

[wfdTamar]

I would think someone wanting to replace lead acid that will only do 50% would want the figure for 80% DOD (wether they make use of it is another thing). It's 700 cycles for that battery.

I really do not think you are right about the chargers, but it is a pretty hot topic. SOME lithium sellers use the concept of 'drop in' replacement (because they know it means more sales), but that is false. Ok the battery(s) will not catch fire or explode on standard chargers, but you will limit their life and endanger the alternator. People can do their own research from reputable sources, rather than 'a bloke on the internet'. I think if you're not going to do it correctly, stick to batteries your chargers can do.

 

[AdrianChen]

I would think someone wanting to replace lead acid that will only do 50% would want the figure for 80% DOD (wether they make use of it is another thing). It's 700 cycles for that battery.

I really do not think you are right about the chargers, but it is a pretty hot topic. SOME lithium sellers use the concept of 'drop in' replacement (because they know it means more sales), but that is false. Ok the battery(s) will not catch fire or explode on standard chargers, but you will limit their life and endanger the alternator. People can do their own research from reputable sources, rather than 'a bloke on the internet'. I think if you're not going to do it correctly, stick to batteries your chargers can do.

I agree -

Thing is that Lithium is getting so cheap now that a good quality LA battery isn't much cheaper at all, and as long as the charger used on a lithium is within sensible parameters, ie not on AGM, a slightly shortened life may well still be better with more cycles than a premium LA. Different in the past when a lithium cost £000's.

I guess if one charge source in the installation will provide a proper charge profile, then you can be sure to balance the cells regularly. The others can be on LA settings (14.1-14.2) for topping up. I would prefer that to Gel with a very long Absorption phase (8hrs) which some folk prefer. So really no more bother than properly maintaining an AGM.

The alternator is worth looking at: so if a 100ah lithium has a 50amp max charge BMS, and the alternator is 180amp output it may not fry, unless the thing is left idling with little airflow. The issue seems to be greater in boats where the engine box/room is often very small and with little airflow and therefore hot, so the alternator wont cool down (Hence the Victron you tube vid). My batts with up to 400amp charging would likely be a problem though.

Cabling from alternator to battery is worth checking, I don't like the idea that some boaty folk use the cables resistance to limit the charge current, but they do, and claim it works....... Not for me that one.

None of that is optimal though (nor is stop start car systems with AGM, or adblue etc etc) and without care not safe either, so the Drop in Replacement in my view is a misused term, because often there will be an increased in capacity for the "drop in" and someone needs to determine if replacing the original 80AH leisure battery, with a 300AH drop in replacement is safe and viable.

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[ChrisL]

I don't know why Chris's lead carbon gels failed. If what he says is right (and I have no reason to doubt it) they shouldn't have. He wasn't pushing them too hard? Battery monitor was calibrated correctly? (though 3 batteries should be able to handle a decent load). I'd be interested too know as they seem like a good option if you don't want to go for lithium.

I live in my van full time and through the winter am on hookup, all charging sources are Victron as is the shunt and all charging sources were set up as per the technical sheet. In the spring and summer I am often off grid, and have 250w of solar, with regard to loads, I only have a 500w inverter and that only runs the tv and sky box, charging of laptop, tablets and phone are run from DC adapters. From 330ahs of lead carbon batteries the single greatest discharge as recorded by the shunt was 145ah over a particularly rainy few days. I was under the impression that lead carbon batteries were resistant to sulphation, but clearly not resistant enough to meet my expectations. I hope that anyone who bought these have a better experience then I did, in hindsight I would have been better off spending a bit more money and going straight to lithium, it would have been cheaper in the long term.

 

[PlacidoD]

I was too new to van ownership when my leisure battery showed signs of being on the way out early this summer. With weeks away in Europe planned I went with a near straight replacement flooded lead acid (and changed all the light bulbs from tungsten to LEDs) When this battery begins to show signs of ailing my plan is a minimalist lithium install of around 100Ah. My thought process is to maybe just upgrade one other element. I am thinking B2B on my 2007 (and thus not smart alternator) van. Taking Adrian's point there needs to be something in the system that gives the lithium battery a full charge. I do a fair amount of mileage when in the van (Newhaven is 275 miles for a kick off) so that should do it.

Meantime I have acquired a EcoFlow Delta 2. That should take care of everything else. It contains a decent pure sign wave inverter so I would have no plans to plumb in a mains inverter fed from the 100Ah lithium.

The above should give me a decent 12V and 240V system at modest cost.

 

[gilbaro]

Thanks for all the input. A lot of what's been said is a bit above my limited knowledge level.
The van was registered in mid 2015 so base vehicle probably 2014.
I have no idea about its output.
The consumer unit is standard Elddis figment so I wouldn't expect any lithium settings.
I am just about to replace the pwm solar regulator with a Victron MPPT 100/20 so hopefully should get a bit more information about what's going on with current battery.
The battery/b2b will be done professionally when I decide which way to go.
I would like to go lithium, probably 2 x 105 will fit easier than 1 x 230 but I need to get more of an idea of costing of all the other bits.

 

[PhilandMena]

I have 2 x 105 AH Leoch Pure Lead Carbon leisure batteries fitted in my 2011 Autotrail Excel motorhome and have been using them for 2 years now and find them faultless. I also have 375 W of Solar Panels. The Leisure batteries are only charged by my solar charger with the Sargent on board charger used for the cab battery, although the charging profile of the Sargent charger is perfect for the Leoch batteries. My most recent trip this year was for 4 months in France, Portugal & Spain and much of that trip was without hook up. I used my Lap Top and TV every evening and my batteries discharged by no more than 15% each night. (Confirmed by BM-1 blutooth battery monitor). Charging up the following morning was extreemly quickly,they were always fully charged before mid day.
I do not have a smart alternator and do not require to make any changes to my existing charging arrangements. My Solar Controler is a Tracer MPPT and can be programmed to suite different charging profiles so perfect for charging my hab batteries.

 

[gilbaro]

When not in use the van does not have ehu so relies on 100w solar between trips and runs out with cab battery being helped by 20w portable solar. This got us through last winter.
I suppose my concern is that whereas on battery was maintained last winter two will struggle to get charged on current set up.
This year was our first and we mainly used ehu when away including a month in Europe but want a bit more off grid capability.
My plan was battery(s) first with addition of smart shunt and Battery Master. Then see how that works and possibly add another solar panel.

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[PhilandMena]

When not in use the van does not have ehu so relies on 100w solar between trips and runs out with cab battery being helped by 20w portable solar. This got us through last winter.
I suppose my concern is that whereas on battery was maintained last winter two will struggle to get charged on current set up.
This year was our first and we mainly used ehu when away including a month in Europe but want a bit more off grid capability.
My plan was battery(s) first with addition of smart shunt and Battery Master. Then see how that works and possibly add another solar panel.

Solar Panels after batteries as the sooner you get more current and voltage the better.

 

[AdrianChen]

When not in use the van does not have ehu so relies on 100w solar between trips and runs out with cab battery being helped by 20w portable solar. This got us through last winter.
I suppose my concern is that whereas on battery was maintained last winter two will struggle to get charged on current set up.
This year was our first and we mainly used ehu when away including a month in Europe but want a bit more off grid capability.
My plan was battery(s) first with addition of smart shunt and Battery Master. Then see how that works and possibly add another solar panel.

If one battery was OK two should be as well, since the solar is replacing what the load has removed, so unless you have increased the load, all should be well.

Yes the self discharge will increase with 2 batteries, but should be very low in the cold weather.

If offgrid, and in plenty of sun then I would favour more solar over the other bits. After all the 20w solar can look after the start battery which should keep up if you're driving regularly, and the shunt is handy as a monitor, especially with lithium but with LA voltage is a fair indicator using a simple chart

 

[IRHP]

I fitted a leoch 150ah lead carbon almost 2 years ago for similar reasons about chargers etc. If replacing again I'd probably go for Lithium as the price has come down a lot. The leoch carbon is still performing well. It does weigh a lot!

 

[wfdTamar]

A nice ratio of solar to battery capacity is 200 watts of solar per 100Ah. If you can find panels the same output as the one you have I'd try to fit another 2, maybe even 3. Or just get all new panels and remove the one you have if you can't find panels the same. This does depend the type of travelling you do. If you go straight to a site with EHU you needn't worry, but off grid (what you've said) I would.

You can also just add more panel(s) on another solar controller and I'd go for a dual output type so it will do the starter battery as well. Example is the Votronic Duo Digital (Epever do one too). This is what I've done and it keeps all batteries good through 7-8 months storage through winter. A B2B might also be able to do that (the Votronic ones do).

When looking at batteries and either 2*100Ah or 1*230Ah don't forget to allow for the cost of cabling between the two 100Ah. Cables the thickness you'll need are not cheap. Fairly insignificant though compared to the work installing. I would hate to have paid for all the work I've done.