Kingspan insulation

[grumps147]

Used widely in self builds, given the conclusions of the Grenfell Inquiry, should we be concerned if using or considering it's use ...' The report published on Wednesday found Kingspan, which is headquartered in County Cavan, was not directly responsible for the fire but showed "complete disregard for fire safety" in how it marketed one of its products. It also demonstrated "deeply entrenched and persistent dishonesty...in pursuit of commercial gain".'

 

[meanders]

Kingspan and Celotex wee both criticised but are the majority brands of bonded insulation. I think the issue is only if externally mounted or if folded as with cladding.

 

[MichaelT]

Used widely in self builds, given the conclusions of the Grenfell Inquiry, should we be concerned if using or considering it's use ...' The report published on Wednesday found Kingspan, which is headquartered in County Cavan, was not directly responsible for the fire but showed "complete disregard for fire safety" in how it marketed one of its products. It also demonstrated "deeply entrenched and persistent dishonesty...in pursuit of commercial gain".'

It's used in houses a lot too I think.

 

[Richard n Ann]

I insulated my bike shed with 30mm celotex , good stuff

 

[Ian_H]

Try setting fire to a piece of it?

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[Brains]

I renovate houses.
I banned all Kingspan and Celotex products within a month of the Grenfell fire.

 

[Red Sonja]

My Husband was a sheeter and cladder and always said that It was well known in the industry how flammable it was. He also worked with asbestos for many years in the 70s and 80s being told it was safe.

 

[Ian_H]

I renovate houses.
I banned all Kingspan and Celotex products within a month of the Grenfell fire.

Did you stop using wood too?

 

[tribalbrit]

Celotex and other brands are widely used and specified in the building trade in ceilings, walls and floors.
If correctly installed and protected by their surrounding material, namely, plasterboard, masonry and concrete they are harmless. No more a fire risk than timber, plywood and mdf, also widely used.
A problem arises when Building control require air gaps to reduce condensation. It is this that causes the problem. We all know nothing burns without oxygen.
The powers at Be insist that new builds are insulated to the 10th degree but then insist on air flow to reduce condensation, creating the fire risk
Personally in a van conversion I would use quilt insulation, easier to pack into awkward corners and fire rated types are available.

 

[Ian_H]

Kingspan sell different products, kooltherm is made from phenolic resin (bakelite), other products use PIR and PUR (isocyanate and urethane based) that produce real nasties when burnt. Mind you, I wouldn't want to breathe much of any smoke, including wood and tobacco!

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[Brains]

Did you stop using wood too?

No.
No one sells wood claiming it's fireproof.

That said, I'd be happy with a wood clad property, which as long as there is no airgap behind to create a venturi effect, wood cladding is surprisingly hard to ignite and does not burn like a torch.
It's also easy to put out with just a water spray.

Kingspan, and to a lesser degree Celotex, both sold their products, knowing they were a serious fire risk and were not suitable for cladding above 18m.
In reality the products are not suitable for cladding at all, and certainly not above the 2nd floor around the 10m mark.

There had been several fatal fires, caused by the products in the years preceding Grenfell.

The products created a venturi effect and as you know, the building turned into a fireball which too two days to extinguish

 

[Pausim]

The manufacturers know the Building Regs and should sell products that can be used safely without breaching them. No excuse. Guilty and motivated by greed.

 

[Ian_H]

The manufacturers know the Building Regs and should sell products that can be used safely without breaching them. No excuse. Guilty and motivated by greed.

Absolutely. Unfortunately our laws are far too weak on corporate crime, health and safety prosecutions are very rare and fines are trivial. Privatising the BRE (or any enforcement body) was asking for trouble too.

 

[meanders]

The problem is though at least European wide and possibly worldwide. No-one wants regulations, and moans about it, but although not the sole cause, the drive to deregulate seems to have played a very key part in diverting attention away from the safety aspects. Government and civil servants seem to have a lot to answer for. Unfortunately we see it time and time again where (very often political) priorities cause severe issues elsewhere.

 

[BusyBuilder]

Hymers use pu foam should be worried?

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[BusyBuilder]

The kingspan product was a ICI 1970's invention. I worked on the plant and they had terrible trouble controlling the spray whilst on the conveyor.

 

[Brains]

Hymers use pu foam should be worried?

Only if you have a double decker Hymer

 

[Ian_H]

The kingspan product was a ICI 1970's invention. I worked on the plant and they had terrible trouble controlling the spray whilst on the conveyor.

Was that in Barry?

 

[Guigsy]

The issue was it was used as external cladding. Which meant a fire could spread through the whole building, even if it had fire breaks. Putting it in an internal wall/floor/ceiling is not the same risk.

 

[Wee Bold Davy]

I spent 7 years working for a company who makes timber frames for it's parent company and for private builds. My job was to cut the PIR insulation to size for the timber frames getting built elsewhere in the factory. At the start all we used was 120mm Kingspan which I was constantly reminded was very expensive. Then the company acquired 2 large plots of land with plans for 800 houses. Kingspan was then only used for 'special' jobs. 100mm Celotex was then the material of choice. It certainly didn't have the quality feel but was more robust. Then came Grenfell and Celotex was off the menu within a week. We then had Thermacel (I think) which felt cheap and wasn't the best to work with. They then tried this stuff which came in rolls like glorified bubble wrap, that was short lived. It was then back to using Kingspan but 80mm this time, supported by 80mm steel clips leaving a 20mm air gap between the insulation and OSB or plasterboard which I had my doubts about. Until I retired this was the standard for all jobs. I often wondered if the customer knew that they were getting 80mm PIR. I'll never know and neither will they. No-one knows what's behind their walls until another Grenfell happens

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[CAB96]

I renovate houses.
I banned all Kingspan and Celotex products within a month of the Grenfell fire.

What did you move to?

 

[Lenny HB]

Hymers use pu foam should be worried?

Sandwiched between a sheet of aluminium each side with air gap, I think you might be safe.

 

[meanders]

Only if you have a double decker Hymer

if you have a fire, the priority is to get everyone out. only try tackling the fire once that is done and if safe to do so. Motorhomes, even Hymer's can be replaced. Lives can't.

 

[Brains]

What did you move to?

To be honest, it made very little difference to us as we mostly use Gypsum board and wood or Insulated fire retardant ply.
Where we have used cladding for insulation we rendered it and it had no air space behind, which means it would be very difficult to burn, even if it was flammable.
We also have nothing above the 4th floor in height, so we are well under the 18m limit.

We were aware, from gossip in both the press and the industry, within 3-4 weeks of the Grenfell fire that Kingspan were not going to come out of the inquests (or later when the Judicial Enquiry was announced) very well. We immediately distanced ourselves from any of their products, and have have maintained that since.

I fully expected the CEO of Kingspan to be serving time by now, and the company to be in liquidation.

Frankly I'm appalled that this has taken so long, the Enquiry should have been given 6 months to produce results, it should not have taken 7 years.

However Kingspan seem to be so slippery they have got away with it for now, with the CPP saying prosecutions this decade are unlikely.
It would appear, like the Bankers in 2008, they are too big to fail, and so will get a financial slap on the wrist in about 10 years time and told not to try not to get caught killing 72 people next time.
(Despite this not being the first offence as a very similar fire, with Kingspan products, happened in Dubai)

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Did you stop using wood too?

I read somewhere that when the original Globe theatre burned down there was no panic, people had the time to calmly walk to the exits and nobody died. Kingspan have known since the mid 1980s when a Kingspan clad Schweppes factory at Aylesbury burnt fiercely to the ground that their product was inherently dangerous. They have improved it, but not eliminated that risk as is know known.
Mike.

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[Ian_H]

I read somewhere that when the original Globe theatre burned down there was no panic, people had the time to calmly walk to the exits and nobody died. Kingspan have known since the mid 1980s when a Kingspan clad Schweppes factory at Aylesbury burnt fiercely to the ground that their product was inherently dangerous. They have improved it, but not eliminated that risk as is know known.
Mike.

I read somewhere that the wooden buildings in the great fire of London didn't fare too well.......

 

[BusyBuilder]

Was that in Barry ?

No Heysham, the old Trimpell works.

 

[dunnah01]

Kingspan is the correct product in the correct situation but also the wrong product in the wrong situation. We weren't the designers so don't know why it was used.

 

[Ian_H]

Kingspan is the correct product in the correct situation but also the wrong product in the wrong situation. We weren't the designers so don't know why it was used.

Again, lots of kingspan products made from different materials with different fire (and other) properties. Certainly not defending anything they have done, just pointing out many people seem to think there is one kingspan product made from one material with one set of properties.

 

[Brains]

I read somewhere that the wooden buildings in the great fire of London didn't fare too well.......

Great Fire of London 1666
13,200 properties burned.
6 deaths.

Grenfell Tower 2017
129 properties burned
72 deaths

Which one fared better ?

The problem with the Great Fire of London, was not the wooden built houses, which were mostly rendered oak frame with brick &/or lath and plaster infill, which is fairly fire retardant (by medieval standards). This is why so many properties of that era and design are still standing today.
It was the thatch roof coverings that caught light.

Consequently thatch roof coverings were banned in London (and still are to this day).
They were also banned in most towns and cities throughout England.
There was a great change to pantiles in the late 1600's.

You can still spot the roofs that were originally thatched and replaced by tile in many of our cities as the roof pitch is greater than 90 degrees
(and they often have a bowed ridge line due to the extra weight).

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