Determining Immobiliser Status for Insurance Purposes

[AlunandFelicie]

When insurers ask if an immobiliser is fitted what are they actually after is it the manufacturer standard if fitted or are they after something superior?
I have a Burstner Lyseo time ,2018 ,do I have an immobiliser as standard ?

 

[Brains]

When insurers ask if an immobiliser is fitted what are they actually after is it the manufacturer standard if fitted or are they after something superior?
I have a Burstner Lyseo time ,2018 ,do I have an immobiliser as standard ?

If you don't know, then the answer is probably not.

Immobilisers typically need to be put into service mode when going into the garage for services.

They also have a habit of independent activation at annoying times, typically when trying to exit a ferry, as the immobiliser realises its been moved without the engine going, which means it could have been put on the back of a low loader and stolen.
(So always put your immobiliser onto service mode when waiting for a ferry !!!!)

Many modern motorhomes are fitted with after market Alarm/Immobiliser/Tracker combination.
The company name you will see crop up again and again is VanBitz of Taunton who will fit in a day (campsite next door)

I think you will find, even if you had a factory fitted or dealer fitted Alarm/Immobiliser/Tracker combination, most people would prefer the VanBitz products, if for no other reason each one is done separately, so a typical thief is not going to know where to start looking to disable the systems.

 

[StillGoing]

I assume yours is based on a Fiat? If so, Fiat fitted immobilisers as standard years before your vehicle was built. If an insurance company asks if you have an immobiliser you can answer yes.

They became mandatory for cars in 1998!

 

[eddie]

When insurers ask if an immobiliser is fitted what are they actually after is it the manufacturer standard if fitted or are they after something superior?
I have a Burstner Lyseo time ,2018 ,do I have an immobiliser as standard ?

Yes

Factory fitted

 

[Brains]

Well, it would appear you probably have got one fitted.
In which case, you need to find out to activate/deactivate it!

(Key fob maybe ?)

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[eddie]

Well, it would appear you probably have got one fitted.
In which case, you need to find out to activate/deactivate it!

(Key fob maybe ?)

It’s built into the ignition key

100% fully automatic no batteries to worry about

 

[AlunandFelicie]

It’s built into the ignition key

100% fully automatic no batteries to worry about

Thanks Eddie because there wasn’t a separate fob I didn’t know how it would activate. I couldn’t find any info in the Burstner manual

 

[Bill-H]

..

 

[eddie]

Thank Eddie because there wasn’t a separate fob I didn’t know how it would activate. I couldn’t find any info in the Burstner manual

In essence there is a chip in the key, there is a "ring" around the ignition barrel.

When the key is inserted and the ignition is turned on, the "ring" (which is an output transducer) transmits. This energises the chip (which is a combination transducer) which is in the middle of the "ring" and it "pings" back a electronic handshake.

This handshake is recognised by the transducer, which in turn sends a digital "thumbs up" to the ECU which in turn sends a message to the diesel pump to allow fuel to flow into the injectors.

This is why a "non chipped" key, correctly cut/copied to fit the ignition barrel will allow the ignition to be turned on, and will crank the engine and but the engine will not start.

These systems are very good considering they are factory fitted and cannot be removed (except by someone like me however, I am now retired)

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

A 'dead key' is also useful if you're taking a key out onto water, or for those who like to hide away a key about their van. Even if found by a ' ne're do well' scrote they may be able to access your van, but won't easily be able to abscond with it.
Mike.

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[Brains]

In essence there is a chip in the key, there is a "ring" around the ignition barrel.

When the key is inserted and the ignition is turned on, the "ring" (which is an output transducer) transmits. This energises the chip (which is a combination transducer) which is in the middle of the "ring" and it "pings" back a electronic handshake.

This handshake is recognised by the transducer, which in turn sends a digital "thumbs up" to the ECU which in turn sends a message to the diesel pump to allow fuel to flow into the injectors.

This is why a "non chipped" key, correctly cut/copied to fit the ignition barrel will allow the ignition to be turned on, and will crank the engine and but the engine will not start.

These systems are very good considering they are factory fitted and cannot be removed (except by someone like me however, I am now retired)

Thanks for the info.

However a "ignition key immobiliser" is not the same thing as the non-factory/dealer immobilisers fitted on many motorhomes.

Where the immobiliser is switched on/off via a mobile phone app, &/or a fob (which is not kept with the keys, and needs to be put in a specific place to deactivate).

If some scrote nicks my vehicle keys, he can drive off in my car.

But whilst the keys will allow him to enter my motorhome, with the immobiliser switched on he is not going anywhere.
Should the scrote have also taken my phone, AND got the pin number for the phone, AND got the different pin number for the immobiliser then he can drive off.
However using any computer I can activate the immobiliser remotely, and if needed change the code, so next time he stops the vehicle it will not restart. (The vehicle also has a tracker as part of the same package)

 

[Brains]

This is why a "non chipped" key, correctly cut/copied to fit the ignition barrel will allow the ignition to be turned on, and will crank the engine and but the engine will not start.

These systems are very good considering they are factory fitted and cannot be removed (except by someone like me however, I am now retired)

You mean to tell me that all those movies where the hero hot wires the ignition in the time it takes the baddies to nearly catch up, before the ensuing very destructive car chase sequence, many not actually be possible !

Bring back the Sweeney !

 

[pappajohn]

Yes

Factory fitted

Agreed.....
As far as the insurers are concerned the factory fit immobiliser is the dogs do-da's.

 

[eddie]

Thanks for the info.

However a "ignition key immobiliser" is not the same thing as the non-factory/dealer immobilisers fitted on many motorhomes.

Where the immobiliser is switched on/off via a mobile phone app, &/or a fob (which is not kept with the keys, and needs to be put in a specific place to deactivate).

If some scrote nicks my vehicle keys, he can drive off in my car.

But whilst the keys will allow him to enter my motorhome, with the immobiliser switched on he is not going anywhere.
Should the scrote have also taken my phone, AND got the pin number for the phone, AND got the different pin number for the immobiliser then he can drive off.
However using any computer I can activate the immobiliser remotely, and if needed change the code, so next time he stops the vehicle it will not restart. (The vehicle also has a tracker as part of the same package)

My personal best was break in and hot wire Gentlemen Jack Bancrofts Compass Drifter in under 20 seconds for MMM

 

[Brains]

My personal best was break in and hot wire Gentlemen Jack Bancrofts Compass Drifter in under 20 seconds for MMM

And you'd do mine in much the same time, as you fitted it!

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[eddie]

And you'd do mine in much the same time, as you fitted it!

Nah

I'd nick your phone

 

[POH]

In essence there is a chip in the key, there is a "ring" around the ignition barrel.

When the key is inserted and the ignition is turned on, the "ring" (which is an output transducer) transmits. This energises the chip (which is a combination transducer) which is in the middle of the "ring" and it "pings" back a electronic handshake.

This handshake is recognised by the transducer, which in turn sends a digital "thumbs up" to the ECU which in turn sends a message to the diesel pump to allow fuel to flow into the injectors.

This is why a "non chipped" key, correctly cut/copied to fit the ignition barrel will allow the ignition to be turned on, and will crank the engine and but the engine will not start.

These systems are very good considering they are factory fitted and cannot be removed (except by someone like me however, I am now retired)

Eddie, does that mean if I have the non starter and fiats immobiliser I am double protected .

 

[eddie]

Eddie, does that mean if I have the non starter and fiats immobiliser I am double protected .

Yes, but from different types of attacks

You have the same level of immobilisation protection as I have

 

[AlunandFelicie]

Just renewed my insurance with Comfort ,they would only give a discount for an immobiliser if it was an additional Thacham approved type not the standard manufacturer fit.

 

[Lenny HB]

Fiat have had factory fitted ones since 2004, our insurance company NFU was happy with that and didn't require any further security. Previous company wanted an alarm & tracker due to the value of the van.

If you have Thatcham 2 to 1 upgrade alarm (most are) fitted that includes another immobiliser..

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[eddie]

Just renewed my insurance with Comfort ,they would only give a discount for an immobiliser if it was an additional Thacham approved type not the standard manufacturer fit.

The factory fitted on is a Thatcham Category Two listed immobiliser, so on the same list as any aftermarket Thatcham approved immobiliser.

They’re talking nonsense, as virtually every Thatcham approved Category I alarm system will be utilising the standard manufacturer fit.

Which are actually very good nowadays

 

[eddie]

Fiat have had factory fitted ones since 2004, our insurance company NFU was happy with that and didn't require any further security. Previous company wanted an alarm & tracker due to the value of the van.

If you have Thatcham 2 to 1 upgrade alarm (most are) fitted that includes another immobiliser..

Nearly, 1997

Cat I is an alarm and immobiliser
Cat II is an immobiliser

A 2 - 1 upgrade adds the alarm bit to the factory fitted immobiliser, ergo a Cat I

Simples

 

[AlunandFelicie]

Nearly, 1997

Cat I is an alarm and immobiliser
Cat II is an immobiliser

A 2 - 1 upgrade adds the alarm bit to the factory fitted immobiliser, ergo a Cat I

Simples

So with the Fiat fit immobiliser and a certain company’s ‘Growler’ alarm system fitted I have a cat1 Thatcham approved alarm and immobiliser correct?

 

[eddie]

So with the Fiat fit immobiliser and a certain company’s ‘Growler’ alarm system fitted I have a cat1 Thatcham approved alarm and immobiliser correct?

In the UK the Association of British Insurers own Thatcham Research Ltd, simply a company not an “official body” or Government department, allegedly a non profit set up, but one that makes standards, and then charges manufacturers to test their products against those standards, standards which are not always sensible but hey ho.

If your manufacturing a universal alarm, one to sell anywhere, it has to be an alarm and an immobiliser, Clifford (USA) and Autowatch (South Africa) both good products, and mention the for context only

If your manufacturing in the Eurozone, and only intend to sell inside the Eurozone, there is absolutely nothing to gain from including an immobiliser function into your system as standard when every vehicle your equipment is fitted to has an immobiliser fitted already, adding additional cost, additional battery drain, additional warranty issues should a starting problem manifest.

So given the insurance companies testing centre states that Fiat, Ford, VW, Mercedes et al factory fitted immobiliser is a Thatcham Category II immobiliser, yes, a Growler is a 2-1 Thatcham approved alarm system.

Van Bitz provides the alarm system, Mercedes (for example) control the starting and immobilisation of their own design and manufactured engine and who frankly is better placed to do it?

No aftermarket Category II immobiliser is as good as a 2025 factory fitted immobiliser, the majority of which control the fuel supply to the diesel pump within the engine electrical management system

 

[Revolvor]

The factory fitted on is a Thatcham Category Two listed immobiliser, so on the same list as any aftermarket Thatcham approved immobiliser.

They’re talking nonsense, as virtually every Thatcham approved Category I alarm system will be utilising the standard manufacturer fit.

Which are actually very good nowadays

If manufacturers' immobilisers are good, what is the advantage of also fitting the Vanbitz Non-Starter? Is it just to prevent vehicle theft due to key theft or cloning?

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[eddie]

If manufacturers' immobilisers are good, what is the advantage of also fitting the Vanbitz Non-Starter? Is it just to prevent vehicle theft due to key theft or cloning?

If I wanted to nick your motorhome, I'd steal the keys from your house whilst your shopping, or from under your towel on the beach whilst your swimming, plus a host of similar circumstances

Its rare, that my motorhome keys and my phone are in one place, and I am in another, so logically incorporate your smart phone into your motorhome security regime

I'm off to Exmoor this afternoon, my motorhome is in the drive, the keys are in the house but my phone which is needed to start the motorhome is on Exmoor with me

 

[Reallyretired]

Comfort insisted on a tracker but not an alarm, though gave me a discount when I told them I had one.
Probably reasonable as nobody takes any notice of vehicle alarms. Mine on the dogmobile mini used to go off regularly when parked with a dog in the back till I discovered how to turn off the internal sensors. In Morrisons undercroft parking it must have been quite loud but nobody took any notice.

 

[eddie]

Comfort insisted on a tracker but not an alarm, though gave me a discount when I told them I had one.
Probably reasonable as nobody takes any notice of vehicle alarms. Mine on the dogmobile mini used to go off regularly when parked with a dog in the back till I discovered how to turn off the internal sensors. In Morrisons undercroft parking it must have been quite loud but nobody took any notice.

By the same argument locks can be picked so why bother locking thieves up when we catch them, or locking doors in the first place.

I 100% guarantee I can knock ANY tracking system out, rendering it useless, Thatcham know this, yet their attitude is that they are effective in the majority of cases, along with locking doors and alarm systems

Not all motorhomes are equal, neither are locks, alarm systems and tracking installations

 

[Smokaijo]

Thanks for the info.

However a "ignition key immobiliser" is not the same thing as the non-factory/dealer immobilisers fitted on many motorhomes.

Where the immobiliser is switched on/off via a mobile phone app, &/or a fob (which is not kept with the keys, and needs to be put in a specific place to deactivate).

If some scrote nicks my vehicle keys, he can drive off in my car.

But whilst the keys will allow him to enter my motorhome, with the immobiliser switched on he is not going anywhere.
Should the scrote have also taken my phone, AND got the pin number for the phone, AND got the different pin number for the immobiliser then he can drive off.
However using any computer I can activate the immobiliser remotely, and if needed change the code, so next time he stops the vehicle it will not restart. (The vehicle also has a tracker as part of the same package)

Which immobiliser do you have ?

 

[Smudger55]

Eddie, This has been an interesting discussion as I struggle every year with clarifying to insurance companies what I've got, ie is my tracker Thatcham approved (apologies for any misinterpretation).

I have VANBITZ GROWLER and Meta Trak immobiliser and tracker. I no longer subscribe to our in-built tracker for reasons mentioned above.

I think I eventually achieve the appropriate cover but never fully certain I've met the specification of the policy for the tracker.

I hope the above makes sense, perhaps I worry about it too much

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