Hi guys, can victron dc-dc charger be used without any of the bluetooth and stuff?

[van-dweller]

I have my eye on the Victron Energy Orion XS 12/12-50A DC-DC Battery Charger as it looks like a good size model for what I am after. I have not been really keen on buying victron so far however due to all the digitized stuff is seems dependent on and having to link to phone or computer.

Can you eschew all that bells and whistles stuff and still set it up manually?

Also is it one that will run automatically with voltage sensing or does it need the ignition feed? I avoided the latter as it seemed more complicated setup with less sensible functionality than voltage only sensing of starter to activate and would like another of the same.

I know victron are all about the fancy bells and whistles but I am the opposite which has made me think their products are not generally a good fit for me. I just like simple manual set and forget setup.

 

[Steve and Denise]

You need Bluetooth to set it up really you could be better with an Ablemail b2b very simple and pre set but you will need a D+ for either to work correctly,
I have a used Ablemail here for £100

 

[MichaelT]

I have my eye on the Victron Energy Orion XS 12/12-50A DC-DC Battery Charger as it looks like a good size model for what I am after. I have not been really keen on buying victron so far however due to all the digitized stuff is seems dependent on and having to link to phone or computer.

Can you eschew all that bells and whistles stuff and still set it up manually?

Also is it one that will run automatically with voltage sensing or does it need the ignition feed? I avoided the latter as it seemed more complicated setup with less sensible functionality than voltage only sensing of starter to activate and would like another of the same.

I know victron are all about the fancy bells and whistles but I am the opposite which has made me think their products are not generally a good fit for me. I just like simple manual set and forget setup.

I would say the sterling B2B would suit you however once set up the Victrons don't go wrong but have seen quite a few issues with the sterling ones that need them resetting up.

 

[van-dweller]

I would say the sterling B2B would suit you however once set up the Victrons don't go wrong but have seen quite a few issues with the sterling ones that need them resetting up.

I actually intentionally omitted mentioning sterling to avoid it detracting from the question but I am wanting to try a different brand precisely because I have had nothing but problems with the sterling.

I know it is going to get a lot of pushback, which is why I avoided mentioning it, given there are many happy customers too with years of faultless service under their belt, but never have I had such a litany of issues with all my other electronic gear combined than I have had in the short couple of months I have had with this one dc charger from sterling. That is in spite of constant back and forth with them trying to resolve it. I don't deny their support are very responsive but if I have to constantly be contacting them due to the product breaking then that negates it.

The best support are the ones you never have to contact imo!

I have lost days of productivity trying to sort it and no electric during the critical period where I relied on it most through these winter months.

Here are just a couple of other examples that I am not the only one who thinks this so I am not some 'outlier':

Disappointed with Sterling Power products

Back in 2009 I purchased a Procharge 20 battery charger from Sterling to replace a Procharge20 which I "blew up". It was a good deal with 35% off as a " trade in". Since then the unit has been replaced twice for the same problem, that is it functions as it should in all charging aspects but the...

forums.ybw.com

Wow! Sterling Power. Outstanding company. - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Not a plug , no interest, just sharing. I had a complicated need that nobody could seem to figure out. Let me just say Ben Sterling (the owner) is nothing short of brilliant and VERY helpful. And

www.cruisersforum.com

I am sure those who have had nothing but good experiences with them are going to rally to their defense but there are just as many who have had poor experiences and I am ready to be shot of them to try a different brand.

 

[van-dweller]

So victron does not look like a good fit after all.

I now am looking at the Votronic 3305 Battery-to-battery charger VCC 2412-45 IUoU-Li. They surely are in the upper bracket price wise but I feel it is worth it for such an important part of your system.

Looks like a good robust and spartan design and seems to also support voltage activation from a quick read of the manual so far.

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[peterc10]

Have you looked at the Votronic 30A B2B. Set up with old fashioned dip switches.

 

[van-dweller]

Have you looked at the Votronic 30A B2B. Set up with old fashioned dip switches.

I am rather looking at the 45a votronic.

I am reading the manual now and it seems I it requests running an extra voltage sensor, aside from the main input + cable, lead from starter + to the appliance which is annoying as those long cable runs are really fiddly!

 

[Lenny HB]

The Victron Orion XS is a really good bit of kit and much more customisable than the others.
What's wrong with using Bluetooth to set it up it means you get access to all it's features.

No way would I consider running a B2B without it being switched by the D+ you can get problems with voltage sensing on all makes.
It's essential to use the D+ with a smart alternator.

 

[van-dweller]

The Victron Orion XS is a really good bit of kit and much more customisable than the others.
What's wrong with using Bluetooth to set it up it means you get access to all it's features.

No way would I consider running a B2B without it being switched by the D+ you can get problems with voltage sensing on all makes.
It's essential to use the D+ with a smart alternator.

I guess I am a luddite? if I can still be one using this other kit.

Firstly I don't have anything that would work with bluetooth. I only use a computer that uses linux. I know victron do have an open sourced version of their software for linux but I doubt it would be a straight forward process.

I would much prefer a simple manual setup. No need to overcomplicate things.

Why is d+ so important? I had read that it is even in fact worse as it can cause the starter battery to drain iirc because it can remain on at inappropriate times either at startup or shutdown rather than working based on the 'on' voltage of the starter battery.

My van is pretty old, early 2000s so I guess none of that smart stuff.

 

[Vansflyer]

Out of interest what is the negative of using BT to set it up?
I fitted a new Orion yesterday, paired it to the phone and immediately had a software upgrade to the latest version. Set up took 5 minutes and job done. No need to access my unit then unless I want to change a parameter due to hardware change or unless I want to.
Our Victron solar controller is 7 years old and still getting free software updates... try getting that from phone providers!
Victron stuff is flexible and friendly if you invest a bit of time learning how it works. Change battery type / capacity etc and then easy to change it on the app rather than head in a cupboard swearing and cursing catching your knuckles.
And BTW, the Victron support for pi is very good and free.
Set it up on BT and never look at it again or go for full integration with other stuff, the choice is yours. But... most people won't turn down a free software update on your car, phone or moho if it makes it work better.

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[LithiumConvert]

No way would I consider running a B2B without it being switched by the D+ you can get problems with voltage sensing on all makes.

That sums everything up nicely.

The Sterling Power B2B certainly works very well with D+

I do not like bluetooth either. So another option is the Schaudt WA 121545. It does not have bluetooth and is set with just a few good old DIP switches. It needs D+ and works well - now fitted by Hymer.

 

[Just smiffy]

You could use the victron and only set the initial battery setting to your batteries then forget it….

I have one and it’s all I’ve done, it runs on voltage recognition just fine, I don’t have a smart alternator.

You could get a friend who has Bluetooth on a phone to do the initial settings for you…

It doesn’t have to be hard…

 

[LithiumConvert]

Why is d+ so important? I had read that it is even in fact worse as it can cause the starter battery to drain iirc because it can remain on at inappropriate times either at startup or shutdown rather than working based on the 'on' voltage of the starter battery.

Because it just simply does the job which it needed - tells you when the aleternator is running (and when it is not).

Don't worry about what you might have heard, or even read. There is a wealth of fake news available.

 

[Pausim]

Why is d+ so important? I had read that it is even in fact worse as it can cause the starter battery to drain iirc because it can remain on at inappropriate times either at startup or shutdown rather than working based on the 'on' voltage of the starter battery.

D+ is the most reliable way of activating a b2b because it only operates whilst the alternator is running. Ignition activated operation is different and will activate the b2b as soon as the key is turned on, putting a heavy extra load on the engine battery at the very time it may be needed to start the engine. Perhaps you are confusing the two?

I now am looking at the Votronic 3305 Battery-to-battery charger VCC 2412-45 IUoU-Li.

That looks like a 24V unit. I had the 12V equivalent in my previous motorhome and it was very good, it was D+ activated not voltage sensing. It was also a bulky unit compared to the 50A OrionXS which I have in my present van which is a great unit.

 

[Hoovie]

As Lenny said, you can ask someone you know who has a smartphone to do the initial setup. After that, you don't have to even connect to it again!
if you don't have a smart alternator, then there is no reason to use a D+ control line if you don't want to.
Of the options mentioned, I would say the Orion-XS is overall superior to all the suggestions given, but for a simple B2B that just does what it says on the tin, then the Ablemail B2B 30A is an excellent unit and for £100 would be a bargain.
Steve is not correct however that it MUST have a connection to D+ to operate. It might be that HIS was configured to use the sense input, but it can just as easily to configured to turn on and off based on voltage thresholds.

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[Just smiffy]

As Lenny said, you can ask someone you know who has a smartphone to do the initial setup. After that, you don't have to even connect to it again!
if you don't have a smart alternator, then there is no reason to use a D+ control line if you don't want to.
Of the options mentioned, I would say the Orion-XS is overall superior to all the suggestions given, but for a simple B2B that just does what it says on the tin, then the Ablemail B2B 30A is an excellent unit and for £100 would be a bargain.
Steve is not correct however that it MUST have a connection to D+ to operate. It might be that HIS was configured to use the sense input, but it can just as easily to configured to turn on and off based on voltage thresholds.

I’m honoured that you considered my advice on par with Lenny…

 

[Hoovie]

I’m honoured that you considered my advice on par with Lenny…

Lenny said it first. First out the traps gets the cigar in my book

 

[gus-lopez]

The D+ is ok as long as you have no back feed,when engine off, to the alternator. On my last van, which I didn't wire, there was always a live at the alternator with engine off & starter battery disconnected , from the solar panels?

 

[Lenny HB]

It's not advisable to use voltage sensing if you have solar or mains charging the starter battery.
The charging can bring the starter battery voltage up to a point where the B2B turns on then the starter battery gets depleted charging the hab battery, until the voltage drops and the B2B turns off then the cycle repeats.

 

[Steve and Denise]

As Lenny said, you can ask someone you know who has a smartphone to do the initial setup. After that, you don't have to even connect to it again!
if you don't have a smart alternator, then there is no reason to use a D+ control line if you don't want to.
Of the options mentioned, I would say the Orion-XS is overall superior to all the suggestions given, but for a simple B2B that just does what it says on the tin, then the Ablemail B2B 30A is an excellent unit and for £100 would be a bargain.
Steve is not correct however that it MUST have a connection to D+ to operate. It might be that HIS was configured to use the sense input, but it can just as easily to configured to turn on and off based on voltage thresholds.

You are right Hoovie this was set from them when I ordered it also lithium profile just to keep it simple, of corse you can change all the settings if you buy the correct leads, I saw no point in that as it was fit and forget

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[Hoovie]

It's not advisable to use voltage sensing if you have solar or mains charging the starter battery.
The charging can bring the starter battery voltage up to a point where the B2B turns on then the starter battery gets depleted charging the hab battery, until the voltage drops and the B2B turns off then the cycle repeats.

I have setup what is - IMO - the best combination of both options ...
My B2Bs are setup to activate based on voltage levels - but the activation is on an external connection (labelled 'sense' on the Ablemail units).
That sense wire is connected to a 3-way switch - so can be fed via an ignition enabled 12V, a direct vehicle battery 12V or disabled. So I have flexibility to leave the B2B 'farm' turned off if I want to (very handy recently when the Alternator had failed and I wanted to make sure they were not drawing power*); or I can have it on the ignition (my default) so it comes on when I am driving; or have it on the direct vehicle battery line should I want them to come on if charging the vehicle battery for some reason (unlikely, but I have the option).
And that sense wire MUST be at a certain voltage, not just +12V level like the typical D+ activation method. Advantage of this is that the sense wire runs back to the cab so instead of the voltage sensing being on the +ve power cable into the B2B and subject to the vageries of voltage drops, it gives a much truer value of the vehicle battery.


*might think if the alternator failed, the B2B would not turn on anyway as the voltage is too low, but I put a mains charger, fed by the inverter, onto the vehicle battery when driving while the alternator was duff, so would have been in the Lenny scenario if I left the switch in an on-position. Obviously could have gone and disconnected cables, etc, but why bother when I can flick a switch

 

[Hoovie]

You are right Hoovie this was set from them when I ordered it also lithium profile just to keep it simple, of corse you can change all the settings if you buy the correct leads, I saw no point in that as it was fit and forget

Indeed ... "fit and forget" has a lot said for it with good kit