Economic factors in upgrading batteries

[Conal]

We have decide to go the whole hog and replace our standard batteries with a lithium set up: more solar panels, upgraded solar controllers, larger inverter, BtoB etc…
I do not expect to get my money back with cheaper non-electric pitches, off-grid camping etc but there should be some payback.
My understanding of present campsite costs is that I expect to pay around £40 per night in the UK for a popular pitch with electric fairly close to things that interest us - coastal walks/towns, canal walks, historic towns/cities, stately homes, historic ruins (National Trust, English Heritage and their equivalents in other countries).
For the same access I expect to pay considerably less on non electric pitches, often on small sites with little or no services (no toilets or showers).
We tow a car so can travel reasonable distances from each site.
The logic I use is simple. We hope to tour in the UK (and Northern Ireland and Eire) for about 100 nights. If we saved £15 each night this would amount to £1,500 each year; less if we used some larger better equipped sites, more if we spent more time touring.
The main reason for this is not economic but battery problems with winter storage where I have no access to an electricity supply; at the moment I swap the vehicle batteries over every two weeks. I hope this will no longer be necessary.
Is my logic sound?

 

[hja]

In our experience site fees vary a lot. If you are on a CAMC ordinary pitch with ehu then £35 - £50 depending on how many of you there are and when you are staying. We are currently on. CCC site, grass, no ehu, age concession cost £18. We have stayed on a grass off grid CL near Gainsborough for £8. I doubt you will be able to stay for 100 nights in the uk off grid, exactly where you want to be with out quite a bit of wild camping.
We upgraded to lithium this year to give us more options, hopefully cheaper. We have only done about 15 nights so far this year, just over half were off grid. We don’t wild camp, but quite happy with recognised overnight stops like an aire in Scotland we used.

 

[Langtoftlad]

I'm experimenting with a power bank, mainly because I have no room for extra solar on my roof and I don't want to mess around with what's already installed.

As for payback I'm currently on C&CC St Neots hardstanding EHU at £16.80/pn, tomorrow I move to one of their grass no electric pitches at £12.11 - so 'saving' £4.69

Powerbank cost me £1k
If payback was my only criteria, at that saving would take over 200 nights!

 

[RedFrame]

Powerbank cost me £1k
If payback was my only criteria, at that saving would take over 200 nights!

Wow, that quick! I think that's far faster than the current estimated ROI on fitting Refillable LPG?

Cheers
Red.

 

[dunnah01]

If your existing setup is struggling to charge the batteries then economical solution is just more solar. All the other expensive stuff will give you a bit of extra but nothing earth shattering.

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[Conal]

dunnah01 I take your point, and I am getting two more solar panels each with its own controller.
A factor I did not mention is that, during hot weather, we have been using a Dyson “cool” fan. On the low setting it draws 1000w and gives out 800w. We found that, even on club sites, it was tripping the electric supply. We are hoping that the new setup will allow us to use this as we do not want to install aircon.
You are also correct in that the upgrade is not earth shattering. I posted to get people view on if this is the way everyone will end up going with increased costs of electricity and touring becoming more popular. We are hoping that after the not inconsiderable outlay, by seeking out the smaller less popular sites, we can still manage to enjoy touring and maybe, after three of four years, come out even in terms of costs.

 

[RedFrame]

If your existing setup is struggling to charge the batteries then economical solution is just more solar. All the other expensive stuff will give you a bit of extra but nothing earth shattering.

I'd disagree with this (although it might be a solution to specific circumstances).
I read it as Conal wants to be able to maintain his cab battery for long periods over Winter without having to visit every 2 weeks and swap them out, additional solar is not going to help him there....

Depending on your current Solar setup, you may not need to change anything (in regard to the Solar), initially it may just be a case of fitting as much quality Lithium as you want/can afford/have space for and fitting a suitable B2B.

You can disconnect the facility for charging on EHU if it's not suitable for Lithium and take manual control of any Absorbtion fridge if on EHU.

Then, over winter, if you turn up once a month and run the engine for an hour, depending on your setup, you'd probably be good.

In the Summer, with between 300 and 600Ah of Lithium, 15A+ @12v of Solar and a 30A + B2B, believe me, it will be earth shattering...

Just my opinion based on my experiences of lead acid and Lithium setups...

Cheers
Red.

 

[Conal]

RedFrame My installer has warned that, whilst more solar is better, if there is no sun, then there is no solar. He agrees with dunnah01 that, with individual solar panel controllers, I will be better off.
Hopefully you are right about lasting longer between visits to storage in the winter. The new system included remote battery monitoring so I will found out before there is a problem.

 

[dunnah01]

I'd disagree with this (although it might be a solution to specific circumstances).
I read it as Conal wants to be able to maintain his cab battery for long periods over Winter without having to visit every 2 weeks and swap them out, additional solar is not going to help him there....

Depending on your current Solar setup, you may not need to change anything (in regard to the Solar), initially it may just be a case of fitting as much quality Lithium as you want/can afford/have space for and fitting a suitable B2B.

You can disconnect the facility for charging on EHU if it's not suitable for Lithium and take manual control of any Absorbtion fridge if on EHU.

Then, over winter, if you turn up once a month and run the engine for an hour, depending on your setup, you'd probably be good.

In the Summer, with between 300 and 600Ah of Lithium, 15A+ @12v of Solar and a 30A + B2B, believe me, it will be earth shattering...

Just my opinion based on my experiences of lead acid and Lithiu
Cheers
Red.

The benefit of lithium is really only the weight saving, leccy is leccy and chasing 5% more becomes very expensive but it's your money.

 

[bigtwin]

What’s the rationale for using separate controllers on each panel?

Ian

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[Conal]

Ian James (the installer) explained that this allows flexibility with different sized panels fitting the space available on the roof. Also I get to keep my original panel (with a new improved controller) and all panels will supply maximum power independently.

 

[RedFrame]

Ian James (the installer) explained that this allows flexibility with different sized panels fitting the space available on the roof. Also I get to keep my original panel (with a new improved controller) and all panels will supply maximum power independently.

I have a feeling, from what you write, that your Solar expert is very experienced in Domestic installations...

I'm opting out of this discussion as I don't believe the OP is getting the right advice...

Cheers
Red.

 

[bigtwin]

I'm opting out of this discussion as I don't believe the OP is getting the right advice...

The reason I asked my question was that there are circumstances where it’s beneficial to have panels in series (i.e. not having separate controllers) to yield a decent voltage to the controller that may not occur if the voltage is split between two controllers.

Similarly, in a parallel arrangement twice the current can be fed to a single controller yielding a greater output (I know that this isn’t news to you).

Ian

 

[Raul]

My two penny’s worth, In terms of solar, as much as you can, and to survive winter you will need 600w upwards. Yes multiple controllers will allow you to fit different size panels if the roof is of that nature. It’s better to fill it up even if different sizes, and opt for multi controllers, rather than less solar because of physical size won’t allow more.
I run two controllers in winter, as I add a portable 230w to it. It makes a huge difference.
Lithium, for long breaks it’s perfect as it won’t need to fully charge, won’t sulphate like lead if left uncharged in winter.

 

[Conal]

RedFrame Thank for you input so far. I respect your point of view and have two comments that might mitigate.. firstly I may have misinterpreted James’ comments as I am not an expert, and secondly, James originates from Vanbitz and they are carrying out some of the specialist work on my van due to Autotrail quirks. James has looked after the van since 2017 and I trust him to do the best for me.

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[JockandRita]

Conal, since fitting a CBE Battery Manager to our old Hymer, I never suffered a flat starter battery again, even when in storage for weeks without EHU, but solar panels were fitted.

On the Flair, it's a Vanbits Battery Master which although similar, operates a bit differently, but still protecting the starter battery.

Good luck getting it all sorted out to your liking.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Lenny HB]

It's not really about payback more about use ability & freedom when you use the van. We don't do much in the UK so even better for us but when we do it's rallies, THS & pubs.
I've budgeted £3500 for the electrics on the next van that is me doing all the work. If I got a professional to do what I am planing it would be over £6k.

 

[Jasz]

We have decide to go the whole hog and replace our standard batteries with a lithium set up: more solar panels, upgraded solar controllers, larger inverter, BtoB etc…
I do not expect to get my money back with cheaper non-electric pitches, off-grid camping etc but there should be some payback.
My understanding of present campsite costs is that I expect to pay around £40 per night in the UK for a popular pitch with electric fairly close to things that interest us - coastal walks/towns, canal walks, historic towns/cities, stately homes, historic ruins (National Trust, English Heritage and their equivalents in other countries).
For the same access I expect to pay considerably less on non electric pitches, often on small sites with little or no services (no toilets or showers).
We tow a car so can travel reasonable distances from each site.
The logic I use is simple. We hope to tour in the UK (and Northern Ireland and Eire) for about 100 nights. If we saved £15 each night this would amount to £1,500 each year; less if we used some larger better equipped sites, more if we spent more time touring.
The main reason for this is not economic but battery problems with winter storage where I have no access to an electricity supply; at the moment I swap the vehicle batteries over every two weeks. I hope this will no longer be necessary.
Is my logic sound?

We have been staying mostly on CL's this month in Cornwall, 2 of which have been in walking distance to NT houses. Both were nicer than club sites in our opinion, one was £15 with EHU and the other was £20 also with EHU, so your saving wouldn't really be that great.

 

[Conal]

Jasz We haven’t found too many at that price - need to do more research!

 

[MisterB]

Don't forget to add into the equation the ability to use more electrical appliances if you add the extra bits .... Being able to just flick a switch for the kettle in the morning rather than watch it boil on gas is a plus for me.


PS - I know it can be achieved with some non lithium banks !

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[JockandRita]

PS - I know it can be achieved with some non lithium banks !

Yes Dave, but with much longer recharge and recovery times than LiFePo4..................unfortunately.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Roger S]

Don't forget to add into the equation the ability to use more electrical appliances if you add the extra bits .... Being able to just flick a switch for the kettle in the morning rather than watch it boil on gas is a plus for me.


PS - I know it can be achieved with some non lithium banks !

I agree witht that, we have been away in France for 3 weeks off grid except 3 days, we use the electric kettle all the time which when it's over 30 degrees less heat created is another benefit, also we microwave so again using the off grid setup, and you feel a smug satisfaction that you are cutting back on gas used so much. We haven't refilled a bottle yet, and it wasn't full when we left.

 

[berni109]

Think you are being a bit optimistic on the £15 pn saving. If you use sites then maybe a fiver if anything at all. Obviously if you are prepared to wild or find cheap cl type stops then the potential is there.
Cost benefit analysis is never going to stack up for motorhoming

 

[Langtoftlad]

Cost benefit analysis is never going to stack up for motorhoming

"Every little helps"

 

[The Wino]

dunnah01 I take your point, and I am getting two more solar panels each with its own controller.
A factor I did not mention is that, during hot weather, we have been using a Dyson “cool” fan. On the low setting it draws 1000w and gives out 800w. We found that, even on club sites, it was tripping the electric supply. We are hoping that the new setup will allow us to use this as we do not want to install aircon.
You are also correct in that the upgrade is not earth shattering. I posted to get people view on if this is the way everyone will end up going with increased costs of electricity and touring becoming more popular. We are hoping that after the not inconsiderable outlay, by seeking out the smaller less popular sites, we can still manage to enjoy touring and maybe, after three of four years, come out even in terms of costs.

What model is that? It sounds a lot of power to use to run a fan unless it's heating as well. If it's running at 800w doesn't that heat the MH?

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[funflair]

We have decide to go the whole hog and replace our standard batteries with a lithium set up: more solar panels, upgraded solar controllers, larger inverter, BtoB etc…
I do not expect to get my money back with cheaper non-electric pitches, off-grid camping etc but there should be some payback.
My understanding of present campsite costs is that I expect to pay around £40 per night in the UK for a popular pitch with electric fairly close to things that interest us - coastal walks/towns, canal walks, historic towns/cities, stately homes, historic ruins (National Trust, English Heritage and their equivalents in other countries).
For the same access I expect to pay considerably less on non electric pitches, often on small sites with little or no services (no toilets or showers).
We tow a car so can travel reasonable distances from each site.
The logic I use is simple. We hope to tour in the UK (and Northern Ireland and Eire) for about 100 nights. If we saved £15 each night this would amount to £1,500 each year; less if we used some larger better equipped sites, more if we spent more time touring.
The main reason for this is not economic but battery problems with winter storage where I have no access to an electricity supply; at the moment I swap the vehicle batteries over every two weeks. I hope this will no longer be necessary.
Is my logic sound?

I think your logic is pretty sound you don't expect to get your money back with cheaper pitches which is fair comment but you can't put a value on the convenience of having power whenever or wherever you want it, I assume you will have an inverter as well of course all this is just icing on the cake as your primary driver is to to maintain your starter battery through the winter, we have a similar situation in that our van is stored in a shed without power or solar (of course because of the shed roof) if I know the van is going to be away for a while I switch off the panel and then trip the main battery switch (good security as well) I then have the Vanbitz BM set up to take power from the Lithium to support the starter battery, I can leave it like this for months and the drain on the Lithiums is minimal, OK I have taken the BM from the battery side of the battery protection trip so there is a small risk there as the Lithium BMS is then the only protection.

EDIT just reading your post again "inverter" tick

 

[BryanW]

I have just removed my underslung gas tank and gone all electric 400w solar B2B 320Ah lithium induction hob, coffee machine, toaster, kettle, compressor fridge and portable compressor freezer no longer have to watch my battery usage or need EHU as the solar and B2B (30A Orion) charges the battery much quicker than with LA.
Don't see it as a way to save money but it just works without having to think about it or look for LPG. Heating is by diesel

 

[ctc]

I followed a motorhome recently with two fairly large solar panels on the back of the van. I assume they were hinged (it looked like it) so he could raise them. Clever idea I thought.

 

[GMLS]

We plan on using far more CS sites, multiple day rallys and informal meet ups like arranged on this forum so we fully expect the savings you are working to as well. Depending on the detail of your usage, I think multiple charging and fuel options are the 1st step, then a decent amount of lithium. If you could managed to use your van say once every 3 weeks throughout in the winter with a varrery master, that would keep everything in good condition and should avoid the need for hook up to maintain levels.

 

[Conal]

The Wino The fan is a Dyson hot+cool (£600 worth!). We bought it for our daughter when she discovered she has Crohn’s disease - a side effect is that she cannot easily regulate her body temperature, but she found it too noisy. The fan is rated at 2000w but we read that, at the minimum cool setting it draws 1000w. We found this ideal for cooling the motorhome at 30 degrees plus outside temperatures but on sites it was tripping the power supply.

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