EC176 & 363 Combo: Utter newbie can't find any detailed diagrams

[Moody41]

Hi All,
This is my first post on this forum so please bear with me.
I am trying to understand the electrics on my two week old Auto-Trail F60. I have contacted Sargent who have failed to reply or even acknowledge my questions. Their support/manuals website seems to have stopped being updated in 2016.

Does anyone have any detail on the innards of the EC176 and EC363?

The F60 is also fitted with a 100W solar panel with battery switch. I would like to understand in more detail what I have bought.
In mitigation: I am used to the marine 12V environment where knowing and maintaining your electrics well is pretty essential for safety reasons (e.g. engine starting, nav lights and emergency radio comms). The lack of circuit diagrams (or, at the least, block diagrams) is leaving me feeling pretty exposed. I have a degree in electrical engineering which probably causes me to have more questions than most.

Any guidance gratefully received.
Cheers
Bob

 

[Moody41]

A quick update:-
Sargent Support have just replied and sent a 'User Manual' which doesn't help me much. However they have offered to send me a full circuit diagram for the F60. I have sent them my F60 build dates. Here's hoping.
Cheers
Bob

 

[autorouter]

Check to see if you have an EM50 Interface Unit, which is a small unit that interfaces between the Sargent boxes and all the vehicle circuits - alternator/starter battery, engine running (D+) signal, lighting etc. I can see lots of manuals for many different Sargent boxes on their website, plus several wiring diagrams, but none specific to your vehicle or box. All these diagrams are very similar, with minor variations.

On British MHs they usually fit a relay that isolates all the habitation circuits when the engine is running. Something to do with EMC testing in a moving vehicle. European MHs usually do the testing, and don't have that relay.

 

[Moody41]

Thanks,
Will take a closer look next time I'm on board.
Cheers
Bob

 

[Moody41]

Dear All,
No further help came from Sargent (except harness diagrams - i.e. no functionality) or Auto-Trail.
The fit to my F60 appears to be EC176/EM55/EC363.
I am quite surprised at the lack of technical information supplied or even available on line. I would have thought a basic circuit diagram would have been the minimum they should supply. Ah well - I'll have to make it up as I go along!
Cheers
Bob

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[autorouter]

Ah well - I'll have to make it up as I go along!

Sometimes I think that's what the manufacturers do as well.

 

[Jonno1103]

Dear All,
No further help came from Sargent (except harness diagrams - i.e. no functionality) or Auto-Trail.
The fit to my F60 appears to be EC176/EM55/EC363.
I am quite surprised at the lack of technical information supplied or even available on line. I would have thought a basic circuit diagram would have been the minimum they should supply. Ah well - I'll have to make it up as I go along!
Cheers
Bob

Why are you surprised? You're not a converter or coachbuilder, you're the end user and as such your responsibility is to replace 12v fuses as and when they blow. What do you need to make up as you go along? Too much over thinking. Wanting to know and needing to know are different beasts.
They stopped illustrating wiring diagrams a few years ago, too many unqualified owners were dabbling and voiding their habitation warranties.

It's not a marine environment, you're life won't be in danger if your fridge or lights pack in... you don't need GPS, you don't need navigation lights and you're not at risk of drifting into a shipping lane, rocks or run aground. You simply drive to a dealership, tell them it's under warranty and get it repaired. If there's a fault with the base vehicle, get it to a Transit Centre.

You want to add extra 230v sockets, simple, go into the back of MCB 2 and fit them as per NCC type approval. There isn't anything else really to meddle with.

As the end user this probably the best you'll get.

https://www.caitlinscampers.co.uk/AutoTrailControlPanel.pdf

 

[cyberyacht]

Having a yachting background does tend to make you want to be able to deal with stuff from the ground up, doesn't it. No Green Flag/AA/RAC twenty miles south of the Nab Tower! ISTR there was an outfit called SeaStart that operated out of the Hamble that covered the Solent though.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Have a look at the handbooks that have been published for the some of the previous models and the wiring diagrams printed in the rear. They can be found on Autotrail's site, although the links keep getting moved. Autotrails wiring is quite basic and I doubt even that the F60 is a newish model there is a substantive difference. The Sargent EC176 is the extremely basic combined 240V/12V/PSU/charger/fuseboard used in the panel van conversions so a lot of stuff is probably very similar.

For the original question on the solar switching, do you have a 2 way rocker switch, perhaps marked with a single and double dash? If so that is simply a selector, one way sends solar charge to the habitation battery, other sends the charge to the engine battery. So you charge one battery or the other at a time, no facility for both. Contrary to Jonno's post above that seems to suggest owners have no right to adapt their vehicles, I had removed that switch instead fitting a vanbitz battery master into my systems so the habitation battery would always be charged from solar, and the engine gets a trickle charge if needed.

I do have a manual sent to me by Sargent for the EC176 and EC361/2. Too large to attach to this post. If you need it please PM an email address and I'll copy that over.

 

[ambulancekidd]

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[Jonno1103]

Have a look at the handbooks that have been published for the some of the previous models and the wiring diagrams printed in the rear. They can be found on Autotrail's site, although the links keep getting moved. Autotrails wiring is quite basic and I doubt even that the F60 is a newish model there is a substantive difference. The Sargent EC176 is the extremely basic combined 240V/12V/PSU/charger/fuseboard used in the panel van conversions so a lot of stuff is probably very similar.

For the original question on the solar switching, do you have a 2 way rocker switch, perhaps marked with a single and double dash? If so that is simply a selector, one way sends solar charge to the habitation battery, other sends the charge to the engine battery. So you charge one battery or the other at a time, no facility for both. Contrary to Jonno's post above that seems to suggest owners have no right to adapt their vehicles, I had removed that switch instead fitting a vanbitz battery master into my systems so the habitation battery would always be charged from solar, and the engine gets a trickle charge if needed.

I do have a manual sent to me by Sargent for the EC176 and EC361/2. Too large to attach to this post. If you need it please PM an email address and I'll copy that over.

No not at all, We have an F 70 and I've added 4 x 230v sockets inside and 2 x 230v sockets in garage connected to MCB 1 & MCB 2. I'm also heavily involved in the F line Owners Group on Facebook. I too have also fitted a battery splitter.

My point was that wanting to know how the 12v system works doesn't carry the same importance as it does on a pleasure craft where in many instances you're solely reliant on it. On any of the F Series there's no need to add to it... unlike the 230v set up which is relatively poor.

My information in regard to the reason why many converters no longer illustrate wiring diagrams in handbooks is factual.

Finally, in the OP's opening post I felt that his need was more curiosity rather than wanting the information in order to enhance his 12v needs. As an Electrical Engineer I'm sure time spent investigating the system and locating the various hidden pre made wiring looms wouldn't be difficult, as you say the wiring is quite basic.

 

[Moody41]

Having a yachting background does tend to make you want to be able to deal with stuff from the ground up, doesn't it. No Green Flag/AA/RAC twenty miles south of the Nab Tower! ISTR there was an outfit called SeaStart that operated out of the Hamble that covered the Solent though.

Thanks,
Yes exactly so!
{I do pay for Seastart. I've used them once in the last 10 years by phone and they were very helpful with a diesel engine problem.}
Cheers
Bob

 

[Moody41]

Have a look at the handbooks that have been published for the some of the previous models and the wiring diagrams printed in the rear. They can be found on Autotrail's site, although the links keep getting moved. Autotrails wiring is quite basic and I doubt even that the F60 is a newish model there is a substantive difference. The Sargent EC176 is the extremely basic combined 240V/12V/PSU/charger/fuseboard used in the panel van conversions so a lot of stuff is probably very similar.

For the original question on the solar switching, do you have a 2 way rocker switch, perhaps marked with a single and double dash? If so that is simply a selector, one way sends solar charge to the habitation battery, other sends the charge to the engine battery. So you charge one battery or the other at a time, no facility for both. Contrary to Jonno's post above that seems to suggest owners have no right to adapt their vehicles, I had removed that switch instead fitting a vanbitz battery master into my systems so the habitation battery would always be charged from solar, and the engine gets a trickle charge if needed.

I do have a manual sent to me by Sargent for the EC176 and EC361/2. Too large to attach to this post. If you need it please PM an email address and I'll copy that over.

Thanks Kannon,
I have gleaned many previous handbooks - interestingly I found a 'Roller Team' one to be the most illuminating - very similar equipment fit except on a Fiat chassis.

Yes, I have a two way switch mounted under the panel above the sink. That prompted me to ask why it was there (surely not two separate heavy cables all the way to the two batteries?)
AND where is the regulator? Neither the dealer nor Autotrail could tell me with certainty. On my boat, the small solar regulator could take two inputs and it charged two battery banks truly individually with a visual display of status of inputs and outputs - immediately reassuring.

Thanks also for your offer of the manual but I believe I have that already from Sargent.

Over the last week, I had a problem with the electrically raised bed. Eventually after much investigation (and hand winding of the bed) the undeclared fuse was found and replaced.

Cheers
Bob

 

[Moody41]

Thanks
Bob

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Yes, I have a two way switch mounted under the panel above the sink. That prompted me to ask why it was there (surely not two separate heavy cables all the way to the two batteries?)
AND where is the regulator? Neither the dealer nor Autotrail could tell me with certainty. On my boat, the small solar regulator could take two inputs and it charged two battery banks truly individually with a visual display of status of inputs and outputs - immediately reassuring.

Knowing Autotrail and the wiring on my V-line, chances are the connection between the solar panel controller and batteries, and through to that two way switch will only be around 2mm sq. Not exactly "heavy". But then the solar panel if 100W generates perhaps 5A at 12V, if you are fortunate.

My solar controller was in the same overhead locker as the two way switch. Can't believe the dealer / Autotrail don't know where it is fitted, should be somewhere fairly accessible as the LEDs might need to be seen so you know if it's on, and some may even choose to replace (albeit subject to that habitation warranty mentioned above) standard one probably a basic PWM which I swapped out for an MPPT type for apparent greater efficiency. I doubt the Autotrail solar controller / regulator will do two batteries, hence the two way switch.

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[Moody41]

Knowing Autotrail and the wiring on my V-line, chances are the connection between the solar panel controller and batteries, and through to that two way switch will only be around 2mm sq. Not exactly "heavy". But then the solar panel if 100W generates perhaps 5A at 12V, if you are fortunate.

My solar controller was in the same overhead locker as the two way switch. Can't believe the dealer / Autotrail don't know where it is fitted, should be somewhere fairly accessible as the LEDs might need to be seen so you know if it's on, and some may even choose to replace (albeit subject to that habitation warranty mentioned above) standard one probably a basic PWM which I swapped out for an MPPT type for apparent greater efficiency. I doubt the Autotrail solar controller / regulator will do two batteries, hence the two way switch.

Hi Kannon,
I'm treating this now as a puzzle for the curious for those with an engineering bent: The Upper OS Harness drawing reveals a 3pole connector labelled 'Solar' which, presumably, connects to the 2way solar switch in the cabinet (3rd pole for 0V). The drawing declares a 3mm (sic - i.e. no mention whether dia. or sq.) wire - not a standard I know of. Tracing the wire colours through the harnesses, they route separately through the EC176 to the two batteries. If there is a solar regulator it must be before the switch above the kitchen (I agree it is unlikely to be a two battery regulator). It is well hidden if that is the case. I will be searching more closely next outing.
Cheers
Bob

 

[rwg]

Hi Bob,

I would be interested in any info you discover - we have basically the same EC176/361 setup in our Benivan (which I think is made by Auto Trail anyway). There are a number of things that I would like to improve over time, and understanding how the system works would help design the improvments. For instance...

The battery charger/12V supply is a basic single stage 13.8V PSU (take a photo through the slots on the EC176 unit and you can see the 'laptop power brick' style PSU sitting in the enclosure). Not ideal for keeping a lead acid battery in good shape, and even less ideal if you plan to change to Li-ion for the leisure battery at some point... But what would be involved in changing it? How would a smarter charger cope with the varying load of the various 12V items in the van as they are used?

The solar panel controller is a cheap/simple PWM (https://www.tipa.eu/en/solar-regulator-pwm-geti-gsr010-12-24v-10a/d-225642/) with a separate switch to charge either leisure or vehicle battery. It would be good to replace that too with something that can cope with both batteries (and ideally MPPT too).

cheers,

Robin

 

[Jonno1103]

Hi Bob,

I would be interested in any info you discover - we have basically the same EC176/361 setup in our Benivan (which I think is made by Auto Trail anyway). There are a number of things that I would like to improve over time, and understanding how the system works would help design the improvments. For instance...

The battery charger/12V supply is a basic single stage 13.8V PSU (take a photo through the slots on the EC176 unit and you can see the 'laptop power brick' style PSU sitting in the enclosure). Not ideal for keeping a lead acid battery in good shape, and even less ideal if you plan to change to Li-ion for the leisure battery at some point... But what would be involved in changing it? How would a smarter charger cope with the varying load of the various 12V items in the van as they are used?

The solar panel controller is a cheap/simple PWM (https://www.tipa.eu/en/solar-regulator-pwm-geti-gsr010-12-24v-10a/d-225642/) with a separate switch to charge either leisure or vehicle battery. It would be good to replace that too with something that can cope with both batteries (and ideally MPPT too).

cheers,

Robin

They've changed the regulator for one made by Sargent. I know a fair few motorhome owners who have the EC176 and have fitted Lithium, MPPT and more solar without any issues.

 

[Moody41]

Hi Bob,

I would be interested in any info you discover - we have basically the same EC176/361 setup in our Benivan (which I think is made by Auto Trail anyway). There are a number of things that I would like to improve over time, and understanding how the system works would help design the improvments. For instance...

The battery charger/12V supply is a basic single stage 13.8V PSU (take a photo through the slots on the EC176 unit and you can see the 'laptop power brick' style PSU sitting in the enclosure). Not ideal for keeping a lead acid battery in good shape, and even less ideal if you plan to change to Li-ion for the leisure battery at some point... But what would be involved in changing it? How would a smarter charger cope with the varying load of the various 12V items in the van as they are used?

The solar panel controller is a cheap/simple PWM (https://www.tipa.eu/en/solar-regulator-pwm-geti-gsr010-12-24v-10a/d-225642/) with a separate switch to charge either leisure or vehicle battery. It would be good to replace that too with something that can cope with both batteries (and ideally MPPT too).

cheers,

Robin

Hi Robin,
I am slowly piecing together the electrical fit diagram and you are welcome to it after I have done a little more on it. It is still very much a WiP but here is my first cut at the harness layout/interconnect - it is one slide in a .ppt file I am building. (Why AT/Sargent make such a simple system so difficult to understand is beyond me - even a basic list of fuses would help!).
Yes, I knew about the worrying battery charger and I have yet to find the solar regulator (if there is one?).
On similar installations in the past I have used separate chargers for the engine and house batteries and a 2in-2out solar regulator but I am not going to make any changes until the MoHo warranty runs out.
Cheers
Bob

 

[Kannon Fodda]

So my Autotrail V-Line is a PVC on the Fiat Ducato so there may be some differences, particularly the interconnects between the cab and habitation on your Ford based vehicles. Even so to the habitation side, I expect with the EC176 based systems, and a quick look at Moody's diagram above, things are not that different.

I had Vanbitz replace my pathetic Banner 75Ah habitation lead-acid battery with Sterling Lithium. A Sterling B2B charger was fitted. The solar controller (identical to the one linked above) was replaced with a Victron MPPT unit. A Vanbitz Battery Master is also fitted. I since added a Victron Smartshunt so I can track the lithium capacity (unlike lead-acid, the lithium voltage is fairly stable so standard voltage based gauges won't predict the charge you have left), and a small inverter so I can charge a powerful laptop or e-bike battery. I'm in the process of further modifications: the 100W solar panel is now 150W the maximum physical size I can fit on the small roof area available (I'll do a separate thread on that in due course), I am fitting a Victron Charger for when on EHU, to bypass the Sargent thing. I'm also adding an extra power circuit as the existing wiring is so flimsy that I don't have confidence it could support an added couple of USB charging points with supply to a WiFi system. That has meant getting behind a few interior panels.

In the Ducato, there is a link fusebox behind the driver's seat, which interconnects the cab to the habitation. One 20A fuse linked the relay charger in the EC176 from the cab. Pull that (thanks Vanbitz) and the Sargent unit no longer charges the hab from the engine. Now the B2B (in my case 60A so some 25mmsq cables are pulled through from the cab battery) can operate without risk of some weird back looping / doubling with the inverter. Obviously the B2B connects direct to the Lithium battery (via Smartshunt) and doesn't go through the EC176. The Battery Master, which trickles the cab battery, from the hab battery, if there is a voltage difference, is wired in with the B2B connections.

Solar controller is a simple swap out of the existing unit for the Victron. Having upgraded the panel wattage, I've also run heavier cables between panel, controller and battery (via smartshunt), now bypassing the EC176. Perhaps oddly, there remains a need to trace the cable that links that 2 way hab or cab solar switch, and crosswire the hab - cab feed. With that 20A relay fuse mentioned earlier pulled, there needs to be a reverse feed via the EC176 or the electric step won't operate.

Charging when on EHU usually dealt with through the EC176. Simple, turn the EC176 charger off - a simple switch on the top, and I think there is also a fuse can be pulled. Now just fit a replacement lithium compatible charger. separately wired from a 240V source, connect direct to the battery (via smartshunt). Until fitting the replacement charger, I consciously used the EC176 charger sparingly to avoid it's continuous incorrect 13.8V charging.

The 361/262/363, display panel will be a little confused with meaningless readings that the hab or cab batteries are being charged, when they are not. In fact the panel knows nothing of the cab anymore as that is disconnected, and what it says on the cab is in fact a duplication of the hab (remember that little reverse feed for the step above). That is where the smartshunt becomes more useful.

Inverter is simple, just wire with appropriate cables from the battery (via smartshunt), not through the EC176.

The added circuit I'll need for the USB/ Wifi power will also route direct from the battery (smartshunt) rather than EC176. Of course each of the added circuits has fuse protection. I've also needed to fit a couple of busbars to enable all the connections.

Effectively the EC176 remains the consumer unit for the 240V, and acts as the fuseboard for original fitted lighting and the solitary 12V hab power outlet, whilst also doing the routing of power for stuff like the water pump, cooker hob igniter and fridge D+. Most other stuff is now either bypassed, or added without going near the EC176.

No doubt I have messed about sufficiently that any habitation wiring warranty would be well and truly voided, but my van is now 2.5 years old so that warranty is probably non existent. The provided habitation wiring was rather pathetic - seems designed as if the van was to have been used as little more than a day van or assumption that you would arrive on a site and immediately plug in. In Spring through Autumn conditions I now expect to be able to park up for a number of days without EHU, and then if on EHU the charging systems in place will make me self sufficient without damaging that Lithium.

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[Nedge68]

Over the last week, I had a problem with the electrically raised bed. Eventually after much investigation (and hand winding of the bed) the undeclared fuse was found and replaced.

Cheers
Bob

We hired an F60, blew the fuse for the bed twice, I think it was the ’safety bar’ geating trapped on the Perspex trim. really needed the upper limit switch dropping down an inch, but not my van. We were given a bag of fuses by the hirer, “common fault” he said…

 

[rwg]

Hi,

thanks Bob for sharing your diagram - somehow I was expecting notifications of replies and never received any, so only came back and found your reply now. Kannon Fodda , your post is very interesting - much more of a change than I want to make at the moment (with the van only 6 months old), but full of ideas

Short term, I am wondering about replacing the 'basic-as-it-comes' 13.8V charger in the Sargent unit with something like the 15A Victron BlueSmart charger, which should at least charge the battery properly and is futureproof against a change to Lithium batteries sometime later. What I don't understand is how 'smart' battery chargers cope with being connected to a system where there are other loads (lights, pumps, whatever is plugged into 12V). Do things like the pump coming on (and dropping the 12V voltage due to the current draw) mess with them?

cheers,

Robin

 

[rwg]

I just thought I would report back here on some investigations I have done on the wiring to the EC176 unit. The list below shows the wiring colours in use for the various 12V circuits in the van as best as I have been able to work out.

I have also discovered that the 'Advanced Settings' menu of the control panel can be entered by holding down the bottom right button for about 5 seconds while the panel is showing the 'Sargent EC362 Control Panel v1.xx' home screen. In advanced settings you can do things like turn the keypress beep off, adjust the backlight duration and set up things related to water and temperature sensors.

cheers,

Robin

 

[Moody41]

Hi Robin et al.
Apologies for temporarily abandoning this thread (my boat was delivered in June and I have been focused on that). Nevertheless the MoHo has done 4,500 miles since March and fulfilled its purpose through the first half of the season plus a short trip to France in September. So far there have been no issues, warranty or otherwise, except the dreadful satnav - thankfully not essential!

I did a little more work on the electrics after my last post and produced the attached spreadsheet but I am still a long way off having a functional system diagram. I still haven't found the 'supposed' solar regulator.

Cheers
Bob

 

[rwg]

Hi Bob,

thanks for sharing - looks like your findings confirm my guesses regarding the fresh and waste water sensor wiring, which is good. Still unsure about my mystery brown and green/white wires on the leisure harness - they don't make sense in the role that you found for those wires.

I actually took the lid off the Sargent main unit yesterday to see what was going on inside - basically a fact finding disassembly so that I can think about replacing the rather basic Sargent mains charger at a later date.

The charger is tucked under he main circuit board on the left - you can see the red&black 12V supply from it come up from under the PCB on the left hand side and fit onto push fit terminals. The mains power for the charger comes via the switch on the top panel (furthest from you in this second photo)

There is already one unused exit from the unit (bottom left on the first photo, with a red wire going through it that doesn't connect to anything). I figure I could bring in the 12V supply from a replacement charger that way. Now all I need to work out is how to take the output from the charger on/off switch out of the enclosure so that the new charger switches on/off in the same way as the old.

Anyway, thought it was worth sharing the photos of the inside as they might be useful to someone. If you want to get in then you will need a security T* Torx screwdriver/bit (the sort with the hole in the middle). T20 I think it was, and you might need a short one as space is limited.

cheers,

Robin

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[jwells]

Very interested in this post as I am about to go through a similar situation! Have you gone any further with this?

 

[rwg]

Hi,

No, in the end I decided that I couldn't see any realistic situation where a higher power mains charger would be required, so I've decided to leave the Sargent mains charger in place.

I figure that if I am hookup at all then I am likely to be there 12 hours, so even slow charging will fill the battery. Add to that the fact will B2b will charge when you drive to site before hooking up and when you drive away means that there should be plenty of power for the battery.

Cheers.

Robin

 

[jwells]

Thanks for that, probably saved me from taking mine apart - that is when I get it!
I will still be interested in how yours works out!
John

 

[Barti Ddu]

I have also discovered that the 'Advanced Settings' menu of the control panel can be entered by holding down the bottom right button for about 5 seconds while the panel is showing the 'Sargent EC362 Control Panel v1.xx' home screen. In advanced settings you can do things like turn the keypress beep off, adjust the backlight duration and set up things related to water and temperature sensors.

Just noticed this post.

The sensors on my water tanks have been all over the place for a while now, and the van is supposed to be getting booked in for a warranty repair, but in the meantime the random water level alarms have been doing my head in. Didn't know about the hidden advanced menu. Just taken me 20 seconds to access the settings to turn the water level alarms off, so no more annoying beeping while I wait for the replacement sensors to be done.

Thanks rwg

 

[sfrain145]

Have a look at the handbooks that have been published for the some of the previous models and the wiring diagrams printed in the rear. They can be found on Autotrail's site, although the links keep getting moved. Autotrails wiring is quite basic and I doubt even that the F60 is a newish model there is a substantive difference. The Sargent EC176 is the extremely basic combined 240V/12V/PSU/charger/fuseboard used in the panel van conversions so a lot of stuff is probably very similar.

For the original question on the solar switching, do you have a 2 way rocker switch, perhaps marked with a single and double dash? If so that is simply a selector, one way sends solar charge to the habitation battery, other sends the charge to the engine battery. So you charge one battery or the other at a time, no facility for both. Contrary to Jonno's post above that seems to suggest owners have no right to adapt their vehicles, I had removed that switch instead fitting a vanbitz battery master into my systems so the habitation battery would always be charged from solar, and the engine gets a trickle charge if needed.

I do have a manual sent to me by Sargent for the EC176 and EC361/2. Too large to attach to this post. If you need it please PM an email address and I'll copy that over.

Hi could you send it to me please thanks Steve Email is sfrain@gmail.com

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