Dodgy diesel ... or something worse?

[Guigsy]

Hi,

Back in March I bought a Ducato panel van that the previous owner had professionally converted to a camper. It's a 57 plate 2.3l, but it's done less than 60k miles. The problem is, the previous owner hadn't used it in several years, so it's needed a bit of TLC. It doesn't have much of a service history. It was on its original belts!

Anyway, a couple of weeks ago I did a tour up to John O'Groats. On motorways I normally get 33mpg at 70mph and I do better as things slow down. On the flowing roads through the Highlands, there was very little traffic, so I just stroked it along, trying to never use the brake pedal (without ending up with half the kitchen in the cab). I managed to get 38mpg on a 200 mile leg! Anyway, I brimmed the tank at Inverness on the slog up to John O'Groats and reset the trip counter. The road is mostly 60mph, not that exciting for some longer stretches and not that hilly, so I'd expect to do fairly well. I got 29mpg.

Next morning, the engine starts, but just sitting there in neutral, it won't rev. All I get is a bit of grey smoke as the needle slowly climbs to 1500rpm. No warning lights on the dash. I left it idling for a few mins, switched off and on again and it seemed to rectify the issue. Driving though, it felt a bit under-powered and clattery and the mpg was 27mpg. For the next few days as I ran the tank down, we followed the same pattern, poor mpg and having to 'warm it up' and re-start before it was prepared to leave the site.

As we crossed the boarder back to England, I finally did a fill at a motorway service station. It was expensive, so I only put in about quarter of tank to get us home, but this probably diluted what was in there quite a bit. For about 5-10 miles the mpg looked just as bad, then it suddenly picked up, I guess it had to run through? By the time I got home I was averaging 35mpg (there was LOTS of traffic!). I was relieved as it 'must' have been dodgy fuel.

I did a full fill yesterday, popped in some Redex for good measure (never used it before) and did a 50 mile trip... Starting is now fine, but mpg has gone back 30 again and it feels a bit wheezy.

Is there anything else it could be other than dodgy fuel. I've read bits about the exhaust recirculation valve, but would that be intermittent like I'm seeing? Is there anything else I can check? MOT is due... and I've got a week off to do Pt 2 to Lands End. Help!

...anyone know any friendly motorhome mechanics in the Birmingham area that can do an MOT for me?

Thanks,


Guigsy

 

[airwave]

Personally , i would replace the fuel filter before i did anything else mate . Redex was a good move , though it sound's to me like you had a good glug of water in the fuel you had from up north . Hopefully when you filled on the motorway , you put the good stuff in , by that i mean supreme or ultimate , depending on whether it was shell or bp . Shell supreme is the higher octane , and my car response well on it , van too early to say . It may take a little while for the motor to settle down again , but my guess is the grey smoke should have stopped .

 

[Guigsy]

Thanks airwave. It's probably on it's original fuel filter too... I've just ordered a filter and tool on ebay so it looks like I'll be stinking of diesel next weekend.

Any other possibilities I can check for?

 

[mitzimad]

you should try reading any codes with a code reader

 

[tonyidle]

Check the turbo wastegate link hasn't partially seized and take a look inside the inlet manifold between the EGR connection and the head. If any of the crud that ends up in there has dried and is floating about the air distribution to the cylinders could be affected.

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[Gromett]

What @mitzimad said. Get a code reader and check what it says. It helped me a @Wildbill diagnose an injector problem on my van that a bunch of garages was not able to find..

 

[airwave]

It's probably on it's original fuel filter too.

Errr , nah , not at this time , mate . You don't mention anything about the engine management light being on , so an interrogation of the fault code's is pointless , there wont be any .
The engine management light would be a yellow warning light on the dashboard , with the shape of an engine . That would also rule out any egr issue's as well . it should illuminate when you first turn the ignition on , then go out after the engine has started . Check it's working by turning the ignition on , then that it goes off after starting . But i wouldn't worry too much , at this time .
After you remove the filter , pour the content's into a glass jar if you can , and leave it to settle . You may well find something like this ,

in the bottom is water . This was what i found in my car a good few year ago , the water also contain's other crap , floating about . The fuel is city diesel from my local Jet filling station , many but not all , smaller privately owned station's don't look after their storage tank's , the smaller the station the worst the problem . Diesel will condensate during the winter month's and the water , which cause's the tank's to rust as well , just drop's into the fuel , mainstream dealer's know this and dig their tank's up to clean or replace them , smaller supplier's often can't afford to , you can't tell who does and who don't , so i give them all a wide berth . On a personal note , i've yet to see a supermarket work on their tank's , which is why i don't fill there either . It may well take a couple of fill ups before you get back to normal , and stick to main stream supplier's .

 

[chaser]

Suppose you have changed the air filter?

 

[Guigsy]

The very cheap garage that did the belts and a "full service" also did do the air filter and they replaced something that resembled tar with fresh engine oil. I know what they did because when I dropped it off I'd got a chirpy, "ready for you tonight, mate". 3 days later (the day I needed to go away) I arrived at the garage and agitatedly watch them lift the bonnet for the first time and hence got to see the whole process. They did not do the fuel filter or anything like a full service, but I did pretty much get what I paid for....

The engine light does come on when turning the key and goes off as it should, so no blown or disconnected dash bulbs. I've also got a cheap generic OBD dongle and the smartphone app says there are no ECU faults. I think the ECU thinks everything is fine. Does that rule out EGR issues?

Fuel filter and tool is on the way and YouTube guides have been watched. Anything else I can check?

Thanks,


Guigsy

 

[Guigsy]

Well, the van passed the MOT with flying colours. Even the emissions was only about a third of the way to the limit. Wife said she'd prefer to risk failing the MOT that failing to get to the MOT... so I changed the fuel filter afterwards.

Turns out it's an easy job, even for someone with few engine skills. Only issue is you need the tool to remove the collar on the housing... and if you don't know what you are doing, everything gets soaked in diesel.
Follow this guide:


The old filter is basically a cylinder of white filter paper that had turned VERY black, I'm not sure if this is normal. I poured the diesel in the housing out into a bottle... actually, I poured most of it on the engine, drive and me, this is what was left. It looks like there was a bit of watery scum in the bottom, but not too bad.

I've driven a couple of miles and it didn't conk out, so I assume I've not got air trapped in the system. It's not smoking or failing to rev on starts anymore, but that might just be because the old crud had already been flushed out rather than the filter change. I'm driving to Lands End next week on a week long tour, so I'll find out if the mpg has recovered then.

Guigsy

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[The Wino]

I wonder if part of the issuer was running at low revs too long and getting clogged up and thats why it was better after the motorway run.

 

[2657]

Well, the van passed the MOT with flying colours. Even the emissions was only about a third of the way to the limit. Wife said she'd prefer to risk failing the MOT that failing to get to the MOT... so I changed the fuel filter afterwards.

Turns out it's an easy job, even for someone with few engine skills. Only issue is you need the tool to remove the collar on the housing... and if you don't know what you are doing, everything gets soaked in diesel.
Follow this guide:


The old filter is basically a cylinder of white filter paper that had turned VERY black, I'm not sure if this is normal. I poured the diesel in the housing out into a bottle... actually, I poured most of it on the engine, drive and me, this is what was left. It looks like there was a bit of watery scum in the bottom, but not too bad.

View attachment 187926 View attachment 187927

I've driven a couple of miles and it didn't conk out, so I assume I've not got air trapped in the system. It's not smoking or failing to rev on starts anymore, but that might just be because the old crud had already been flushed out rather than the filter change. I'm driving to Lands End next week on a week long tour, so I'll find out if the mpg has recovered then.

Guigsy

I prefer to let that man in the video do mine..........not too far from you in Telford.

 

[Guigsy]

I wonder if part of the issuer was running at low revs too long and getting clogged up and thats why it was better after the motorway run.

I did wonder that as I've heard that not enough abuse can clog stuff in the exhaust. Coming back south through the Cairngorms though, it had a proper ragging "Italian Tune-up" while I was trying to keep up with a much larger motorhome climbing up long stretches of hills. I lost.

 

[airwave]

Well, the van passed the MOT with flying colours.

Excellent news my friend , and your half way to being able to service your own motor into the bargain . The rest is pretty straight forward . It's not normal for the filter to be in the state you found it , and i'm afraid it does suggest's it's being a while since it was last serviced . The mere fact you asked a garage to take a look was certainly another good move . Now it's possible you lost some of the water when you spilled the content's over the drive , we will never know , however the small amount in the bottle , to be honest look's pretty insignificant . The picture i posted was the full content's of my filter , and that was a jam jar . I do the fuel filter once a year , along with the air filter . However i change the oil filter every time i change the oil , and as my oil also come's out looking like treacle every time , part of the combustion process , i've recently discovered . I also run a flushing oil through the motor , before replacing with a high quality engine oil . Oh and i do that 3-4 time's a year .
Your engine management system cover's your emission system , egr included . On your vehicle it will probably also cover steering , air con , etc , but the primary engine function's , will be covered by the standard warning light's .
Finally , diesel engine's are built to work , they don't like idling . Bad new's when you want to charge your battery . Idling cause's glazing of the bore's , resulting in loss of compression over time . Don't be afraid to give it a good blow out , or in a hurry to change down on hill's , give them summit to do , their love you for it . The clogging of the exhaust is the dpf filter , part of the emission system , and a good prolonged blow out is good for it .


Just one final thought here , my friend . I would investigate as to whether the cam belt has been change recently , your over 5 year's and 60k is around change time , or was that the belt's you refer to . Remember the state of your fuel filter ! .

 

[Guigsy]

Excellent news my friend , and your half way to being able to service your own motor into the bargain . The rest is pretty straight forward . It's not normal for the filter to be in the state you found it , and i'm afraid it does suggest's it's being a while since it was last serviced ....

Just one final thought here , my friend . I would investigate as to whether the cam belt has been change recently , your over 5 year's and 60k is around change time , or was that the belt's you refer to . Remember the state of your fuel filter ! .

When I bought the van, it was an Autotrader job advertised at a rather cheap price. I was fully aware that it was a few grand under price and needed to find out why. On first-hand inspection, the main reasons were that although the previous owner appears to have spent lots of money on a professional conversion, he'd only used it for a couple of years, then pretty much ignored it. The last 5 years MOTs show that it'd been almost stationary. It was filthy, it has no service history and there were obvious signs of neglect. It looked good in thumbnail photos, but a scrubber up-close.

However, underneath the grub, I could see no bodywork or chassis rust except stone chips, no signs of a serious prang, just a couple of cosmetic dings and the engine seemed to run fine. I couldn't find any quick-fix bodges anywhere, which I find is a good sign as you know what you're getting. All the internal issues appeared to be superficial. And importantly, it was the size and layout I wanted, which is rare... so I took a gamble. When I got it home, the wife was initially not impressed, but after a few days of heavy detergents and fettling, it was much more presentable.

Next was to get the timing belt and tensioner changed. The old belt wasn't too scared or cracked, but it had definitely lost its sheen and there was a little wear along the edges. That service also got me an oil and air filter change, but nothing else. I was slightly shocked at how much quieter the engine became... maybe it was worse than I thought.

Next things to worry about are that the other fluids are probably all 10 years old too. Brake, coolant and powered steering fluids could all do with a flush. And I think what is the powered steering pump is a bit noisy... to be investigated.

After all this I probably could have spent the money on 'a goodun' instead of throwing cash and time at this one. My justification is that I now know most of the hidden evils... and I enjoy fixing stuff, so money well spent... so far.

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[Guigsy]

OK. Just got back from Land's End. MPG was OK, but not great. The important thing was the van held out fine...

However, we spent quite a lot of time on some quay car parks in the past week with some nice salty spray in the air, so when I washed it earlier, I gave the underside a bit of a rinse with the pressure washer... I'm not (too) stupid, it's a weak washer and I used the fan nozzle and I kept it from getting too close to anything. I also thought I only sprayed stuff behind the front axle.

I go to start it to move it back into its parking spot... and it started fine, but won't rev again! The time the revving issue happened in Scotland, it was also very wet.

So the question is, what can get wet to cause this issue? Can anything get into the air filter, or is it something on the underside that I've soaked? Is there a lambda sensor near the end of the exhaust that I've blasted? Whatever, would it cause this problem? Poor to rev and yet no engine warning lights?

Thanks all,

Guigsy

 

[Podney]

I don't know the answer,and am not a techie,but the first question that comes to my mind about being wet is.....does it do this when you are travelling and the roads are very wet? If you were careful with the washer,I can't see it would be any different.

 

[TerryL]

Sorry, but despite the lack of warning lights, it sounds like the throttle body, a well-known Fiat Ducato problem. Your symptoms are exactly the same as I had (we were in Norway) and was only finally fixed by a Fiat Professional dealership after I'd limped it home and other garages failed to diagnose it. However, I had the engine management warning come on every time - the fault did clear itself initially - and the code reader pointed to this as a possible cause.

 

[Guigsy]

I've actually been pretty lucky, I've not had to drive in the pee'ing rain that often.

And as before, leave it a minute and the issue clears (although I think I'm only getting about 80% power and it feels lumpy). Which is why I'm not convinced it's an ERG throttle body issue.

 

[tonyidle]

I have a 2005 2.8JTD (Hymer). I pressure wash it 3 or 4 times a year, including the engine bay itself, without any problems occurring.

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[pappajohn]

've yet to see a supermarket work on their tank's

Sainsbury Scarborough two years ago.....New tanks, pumps and plumbing.
Station closed for nearly a month.

 

[Wandering vagabond]

Sainsbury Scarborough two years ago.....New tanks, pumps and plumbing.
Station closed for nearly a month.

Morrisons Doncaster doing the same when i was up there earlier in the week

 

[airwave]

Morrisons Doncaster

Sainsbury Scarborough two years ago.

Yep , gotta hold my hand's up guy's , only last week i noticed a tesco express on the a40 just outside oxford , with a big hole in the ground where the tank's should be . Almost a "sod's law" moment . That store is only about 10 year's old , so i stand corrected ! . However i seem to recall there's a tie up , somewhere with esso in the case of the express store's , so it maybe more the exception , than the rule . I used to deliver to one store's that's stood for 25 year's that hasn't been touched , and another local store that's been in the local new's twice for causing problem's , both are superstore's though different chain's . I've seen far more mainstream supplier's having their tank's dug up , local bp twice .

it started fine, but won't rev again!

So ya still got problem's , me ole mucker . I dunno what to say , you never mentioned anything about rain in your first post , and even if you had it wouldn't have made any difference , being as it was just the once . If you kept the jet behind the front axle there's only two component's that could possibly affect the running of the van . The lambda sensor which mainly control's the fuel/air mix , and the catalytic converter , which though i was lead to understand didn't like water , i've since discovered it's not true . However i've read report's of lambda sensor's taking a dislike to the stuff , and doing strange thing's . Water appear's to be getting into the electric connection and making the ecu think the engine is running too rich . So the ecu lean's the mixture out to the point that the engine won't run , this could also affect mpg .
Like @tonyidle , i also pressure wash my car regular , including the engine with no ill effect's , but I don't as yet touch the van engine , due to the electrical mess under the bonnet i've inherited from the previous owner . Until i sort that out , it won't happen . Hasn't slowed me down though , only yesterday i blasted the underside of my van . Year's of dried on mud removed with no problem's , just don't ask about the state of the drive right now , okay .