Differences in Lithium Battery Prices.

Mart 63

Mart 63

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Just being curious here. After looking at lithium battery threads on here, lithium battery adverts keep popping up on my Facebook. What difference is there between a £300 lithium battery and a £3000 lithium battery, surely there can't be that much of difference in price with the same amperage🤔
 
Mart 63 said:
Just being curious here. After looking at lithium battery threads on here, lithium battery adverts keep popping up on my Facebook. What difference is there between a £300 lithium battery and a £3000 lithium battery, surely there can't be that much of difference in price with the same amperage🤔
Click to expand...
Post some links to each and we can advise.
There are different cell types and functions etc but
300 and 3000 seems a big difference
 
Mart 63 said:
Just being curious here. After looking at lithium battery threads on here, lithium battery adverts keep popping up on my Facebook. What difference is there between a £300 lithium battery and a £3000 lithium battery, surely there can't be that much of difference in price with the same amperage🤔
Click to expand...
you also need to be comparing Wh, not Ah.
You will see adverts for a 48V 100Ah say and a 12V 100Ah battery. They may be the same Amperage (if you mean Amp-hours), but one is 4 times larger.
 
A £300 vs £3000 for the same capacity would be an extreme difference.

There are three major differences between good and bad batteries (ignoring price for the moment).

1. The cells. Whilst the major “good” manufacturers are about the same quality (Eve, Catl, Lishen to name three) there are some really bad manufacturers. In addition to this there are also Grade A, B and reject cells (generally accepted grading).

2. The BMS. Some are really good (JK, JBD and a few more) and again some cheap nasties. No use having the best cells and then skimping on the BMS.

3. The assembly of the components into the battery. Because there are at least four cells in a 12v battery that makes roughly 12 connections in total, and each has the potential to generate heat, lose voltage under load etc.

For our YouTube channel we’ve tested a few too-good-to-be-true batteries and cells. Very few reached the stated capacity. We’ve had some interesting results.

Having said all of this there are some significant disruptors out there. FogStar for example produce some pretty cheap batteries but at a very reasonable price. It’s our preferred battery to sell and fit because our required support effort is so small - we’ve only ever had one fail that had to be returned.
In a recent teardown of an EcoWorthy Will Prowse was suitably impressed and they’re even cheaper than Fogstar.
Yet some of the more pricey batteries are (IMO) not as good as FogStar in terms of quality.
 
RogerIvy said:
A £300 vs £3000 for the same capacity would be an extreme difference.

There are three major differences between good and bad batteries (ignoring price for the moment).

1. The cells. Whilst the major “good” manufacturers are about the same quality (Eve, Catl, Lishen to name three) there are some really bad manufacturers. In addition to this there are also Grade A, B and reject cells (generally accepted grading).

2. The BMS. Some are really good (JK, JBD and a few more) and again some cheap nasties. No use having the best cells and then skimping on the BMS.

3. The assembly of the components into the battery. Because there are at least four cells in a 12v battery that makes roughly 12 connections in total, and each has the potential to generate heat, lose voltage under load etc.

For our YouTube channel we’ve tested a few too-good-to-be-true batteries and cells. Very few reached the stated capacity. We’ve had some interesting results.

Having said all of this there are some significant disruptors out there. FogStar for example produce some pretty cheap batteries but at a very reasonable price. It’s our preferred battery to sell and fit because our required support effort is so small - we’ve only ever had one fail that had to be returned.
In a recent teardown of an EcoWorthy Will Prowse was suitably impressed and they’re even cheaper than Fogstar.
Yet some of the more pricey batteries are (IMO) not as good as FogStar in terms of quality.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, I have a battery that was around £4k (would never have paid that myself, but it came with th van)
It just seems a mine field out there.
 
I've just bought an Ecoworthy 100Ah lithium battery from e-bay - with the money off voucher it was around £150(ish) whist the same battery on Amazon or from Ecoworthy themselves was £199 !
 
Relion are a fancy US brand. Very good quality and been around for a long time, but I wouldn't pay that kind of money. Nearly €3000 for 300Ah is the kind of money they went for years ago and cell prices are far lower nowadays.

All the known decent brands are still selling at prices for early adopters and those who will pay anything for a locally assembled product with product support from people with their own accent.

I've built a battery twice that capacity for about half that money (using quality Eve cells and a quality 250 Amp BMS). That just shows how much extra you're paying for a warranty and support, not to mention a hefty profit for the assemblers.

If you're not willing to DIY one you could watch Youtube teardowns of various brands to see which are ok. Problem is a lot of them tend to be US market brands. I would not be scared off cheaper brands, but there is a risk of a problem. If I were tootling around in 'civilised' countries where you could get a problem sorted out (or sort it out yourself) it may be worth the risk to save the money.

The further afield you travel and less comfortable you are at diagnosing or DIY, the better a battery you'd want.

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Mart 63 said:
Just being curious here. After looking at lithium battery threads on here, lithium battery adverts keep popping up on my Facebook. What difference is there between a £300 lithium battery and a £3000 lithium battery, surely there can't be that much of difference in price with the same amperage🤔
Click to expand...
Why does a Porsche cost more than a Citroen? When I bought my first LiFePO4 battery in 2017 there was very little choice and Relion was, and probably still is, one of the best. I would not buy a new Relion battery now because there are better value alternatives and I don’t need the Rolls Royce of batteries. If I was setting up a remote base or weather station which is inaccessible for most of the year I would probably buy Relion batteries.
 
Fogstar 105 Drift. 1st one faulty and Fogstar collected it. That went missing and we waiting weeks for a replacement. But, this one has been okay.

Currently considering adding another, or........building one of their kits....

www.fogstar.co.uk

Fogstar Energy 12V DIY Kit (Envision Grade B 315Ah)

The Fogstar Energy 12V DIY Kit with Envision Grade B 315Ah cells includes everything needed to assemble a 12V Fogstar battery, including the case, LiFePO4 cells, accessories, and BMS.
www.fogstar.co.uk www.fogstar.co.uk
 
EuroTrotters said:
Fogstar 105 Drift. 1st one faulty and Fogstar collected it. That went missing and we waiting weeks for a replacement. But, this one has been okay.

Currently considering adding another, or........building one of their kits....

www.fogstar.co.uk

Fogstar Energy 12V DIY Kit (Envision Grade B 315Ah)

The Fogstar Energy 12V DIY Kit with Envision Grade B 315Ah cells includes everything needed to assemble a 12V Fogstar battery, including the case, LiFePO4 cells, accessories, and BMS.
www.fogstar.co.uk www.fogstar.co.uk
Click to expand...
Be interested in any feedback from funsters that have used these kits
 
Pausim said:
Why does a Porsche cost more than a Citroen? When I bought my first LiFePO4 battery in 2017 there was very little choice and Relion was, and probably still is, one of the best. I would not buy a new Relion battery now because there are better value alternatives and I don’t need the Rolls Royce of batteries. If I was setting up a remote base or weather station which is inaccessible for most of the year I would probably buy Relion batteries.
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incredibly overpriced... just like a rolls royce. There is no magic in battery building... decent cells and a decent bms. Theres no justification for charging 10k for a 48v 300aH battery. All that's happening is you are paying upfront for the warranty. The cells cost the same as a 1k battery etc.

It's 1100GBP to buy 16 315 Ah cells, 200gbp for the BMS and hardware. That's at consumer prices...

Businesses will tell you all sorts of stuff, but the reality is they want your money, as much as they can get. Solar and batteries are still a market where the consumer is ignorant enough to have this kind of stuff be successful.

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Sewdhull said:
incredibly overpriced... just like a rolls royce. There is no magic in battery building... decent cells and a decent bms. Theres no justification for charging 10k for a 48v 300aH battery. All that's happening is you are paying upfront for the warranty. The cells cost the same as a 1k battery etc.

It's 1100GBP to buy 16 315 Ah cells, 200gbp for the BMS and hardware. That's at consumer prices...

Businesses will tell you all sorts of stuff, but the reality is they want your money, as much as they can get. Solar and batteries are still a market where the consumer is ignorant enough to have this kind of stuff be successful.
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I certainly wouldn’t pay 10k for a 15kW battery but then that special order battery is not aimed at me. However if I was setting up a winter base in Antarctica I wouldn’t be buying 16 prismatic cells wired together with a £200 BMS. I might prefer a much greater number of perfectly matched cylindrical cells individually bolted into a steel case sourced from a manufacturer with a reputation for reliability.
 
We have just paid £700 for a 230amphr liPo battery from Eco Tree at Oak Tree Motorhomes so far we have had no complaints it's full and working well would be nice to get some sunshine to double check the new solar controller too
 
Pausim said:
I certainly wouldn’t pay 10k for a 15kW battery but then that special order battery is not aimed at me. However if I was setting up a winter base in Antarctica I wouldn’t be buying 16 prismatic cells wired together with a £200 BMS. I might prefer a much greater number of perfectly matched cylindrical cells individually bolted into a steel case sourced from a manufacturer with a reputation for reliability.
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I have never heard of Relion until today, they have no reputation so far as i am concerned. They wont have paid 200quid for a BMS, way less. They have done a product recall i notice on one of their products, so they have had an issue, but to their credit responded to it.

None of their products are reasonably priced and they over hype the product features as if their products are in any way unusual.

The price of their batteries doesn't drop with application, all of their batteries are outrageously priced and you can get a voltmeter to go with your battery for 150GBP. This type of pricing is for companies etc who will pass that cost on or write it off and for those who think, that's expensive it must be good. I imagine they supply their parent company with batteries...

I'm unsure why Antarctica comes up, but I am pretty sure generators or at a push LTC batteries would be the choice out there, not something you cant charge below 0C.

I'm sure they have created decent batteries but not to the extent that similar batteries are a fifth of the price, both in a plastic box.
 
We have SuperB and yes they cost a fortune but are the standard equipment on MORELO, when you look the spec of their 160ah offering the maximum and continuous current draw are way above most others so there must be something different with them😏
 
I have noticed a lot of the cheap eBay batteries at the moment are good value £/ah but have a limited current draw compared to some of the mainstream offerers meaning they may not be as good for inverters.

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Sewdhull said:
I'm unsure why Antarctica comes up
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It comes up because you quoted a £15kW special order battery weighing 176kg (28stone) which is not suitable for motorhome use and is not aimed at us. You are trying to compare very different products.
Sewdhull said:
I'm sure they have created decent batteries but not to the extent that similar batteries are a fifth of the price
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t buy another Relion because there are now cheaper alternatives but neither would I buy one costing a fifth of the price.
 
funflair said:
We have SuperB and yes they cost a fortune but are the standard equipment on MORELO, when you look the spec of their 160ah offering the maximum and continuous current draw are way above most others so there must be something different with them😏
Click to expand...

Likely ‘just’ a difference in the quality of the BMS so able to handle bigger draws 2C range and probably better at balancing!

IMHO, one of the key components of a good battery pack is the cells all having very similar IR. They charge more equally without long balancing requirements, share the load more evenly etc etc
 

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