Dc to dc charger install cost

[BOOMEL]

I am nervous when it comes to electrics and wanting any experience re install of Sargent dc to dc charger install. I have a 2022 AS Nuevo with a factory fitted 60amp lithium that I am upgrading to a Fogstar 100amp lithium. It is recommended (I believe) that a dc to dc charger is installed. Any idea of an install cost? Has anyone had experience of this?

regards,

BOOMEL

 

[jumar]

I am nervous when it comes to electrics and wanting any experience re install of Sargent dc to dc charger install. I have a 2022 AS Nuevo with a factory fitted 60amp lithium that I am upgrading to a Fogstar 100amp lithium. It is recommended (I believe) that a dc to dc charger is installed. Any idea of an install cost? Has anyone had experience of this?

regards,

BOOMEL

Not the question you asked...but, could you accommodate a slightly larger battery to begin with...you are well on track to getting a Very efficient system..
The DC2DC Charger would be a essential addition to your set up...
Try asking for a quote from eddievanbitz which should get you a Funster discount.
FYI I changed my 90aH lead battery for a 160aH Lithium and saved space and weight...I married it to a DC2DC and am totally delighted with it's performance...self fitted.

 

[MichaelT]

As the factory fitted a lithium battery does it already have a B2B especially as I think it will have a smart alternator assuming its a fiat. Worth checking out maybe?

 

[Pausim]

A 2022 van will have a smart alternator and should already have a B2B. Hopefully Autosleeper have already fitted one because even a lead acid battery will not charge properly without one.

 

[Lenny HB]

A 2022 van will have a smart alternator and should already have a B2B. Hopefully Autosleeper have already fitted one because even a lead acid battery will not charge properly without one.

Quite a few Brit vans don't have them, yep I know unbelievable.

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[Gaston aires]

My recently self fitted fogstar 230 AH underseat drift battery has worked brilliantly on our current trip. However with Lenny,s advice I will install a B2B when we return to Blighty. The charge rate when driving around without one is slow in comparison. Very pleased indeed, through a sine wave inverter we have been boiling kettles using toasters, hairdryers, etc. Must have saved loadsa gas.
Phil upmegasbutnotsomuch

 

[Pausim]

Quite a few Brit vans don't have then, yep I know unbelievable.

As you say unbelievable. I knew some of them were a bit slow to catch on but to be still getting it wrong several years later is unbelievable. I thought my understanding of vehicle electrics was limited but motorhome manufacturers ought to understand the basics.

 

[Lenny HB]

thought my understanding of vehicle electrics was limited but motorhome manufacturers ought to understand the basics.

 

[BOOMEL]

A 2022 van will have a smart alternator and should already have a B2B. Hopefully Autosleeper have already fitted one because even a lead acid battery will not charge properly without one.

Nope they didn’t fit one! Unbelievable

 

[autorouter]

I am nervous when it comes to electrics and wanting any experience re install of Sargent dc to dc charger install. I have a 2022 AS Nuevo with a factory fitted 60amp lithium that I am upgrading to a Fogstar 100amp lithium. It is recommended (I believe) that a dc to dc charger is installed. Any idea of an install cost? Has anyone had experience of this?

Presumably the manufacturers didn't fit a split charge relay either. Since the distribution box (probably Sargent) usually contains a split charge relay then I suppose that relay has already been disabled, because it would cause problems with a smart alternator if it wasn't. Disabling the split charge relay is usually the trickiest part of installing a DC-DC charger, and it looks like that's already been done for you.

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[BOOMEL]

Presumably the manufacturers didn't fit a split charge relay either. Since the distribution box (probably Sargent) usually contains a split charge relay then I suppose that relay has already been disabled, because it would cause problems with a smart alternator if it wasn't. Disabling the split charge relay is usually the trickiest part of installing a DC-DC charger, and it looks like that's already been done for you.

Don’t think so

 

[headlight]

I had a Sterling 60amp B2B fitted by Van Bitz last Xmas, cost about £700 iirc.

 

[Pausim]

I know, I live in a fantasy world where manufacturers learn from problems that were discovered many years ago. It is probably worse than that because I would be astonished if the B2B manufacturers have not approached all the UK motorhome manufacturers telling them that split charge relays cause problems with smart alternators.

 

[jongood]

Nope they didn’t fit one! Unbelievable

Almost certainly because the final decision would have been made by accountants, who would weighed the extra cost against warranty claims/losing customers

 

[Pausim]

Almost certainly because the final decision would have been made by accountants, who would weighed the extra cost against warranty claims/losing customers

They lost me as a customer many years ago.

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[jongood]

They lost me as a customer many years ago.

Sadly- lots of especially larger companies have similar ethos. Imho you usually get a lot more honesty and care from smaller owner-run businesses but sadly the over regulation almost always persuades them to ultimately sell out to the big boys.

I was recently told a great story about A Gas company which illustrates it very well. They have been buying up independent smaller independent suppliers. They are acknowledged to offer a very poor delivery service because they dont run enough tankers. When the operators ask for more tankers the accountants apparently tell them that its cheaper to replace the lost customers than operate more tankers. Sad.

 

[BOOMEL]

A 2022 van will have a smart alternator and should already have a B2B. Hopefully Autosleeper have already fitted one because even a lead acid battery will not charge properly without one.

Definitely not got a b2b with a 60ah lithium in it

 

[BOOMEL]

Any idea what to expect in terms of install cost?

 

[Pausim]

Any idea what to expect in terms of install cost?

No idea what disabling a Sargent split charge relay will involve but it is essential if there is one. I fitted my B2B myself so again no idea what an installer will charge.

 

[RogerIvy]

Any idea what to expect in terms of install cost?

A “standard” Victron DC-DC install is usually 4 hours including extensive testing.
We charge £60 per hour so £240. I think most fitters would be in this ballpark.
Sometimes a Sargent system “split charge” can be deactivated by removing a relay, if not a bypass relay is installed running off the D+ to prevent potential problems when both systems charge at the same time.
We usually activate the DC-DC with D+ rather than simply relying on voltage detection (which used to work great with older alternators but more unpredictable with modern alternators).

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[BOOMEL]

A “standard” Victron DC-DC install is usually 4 hours including extensive testing.
We charge £60 per hour so £240. I think most fitters would be in this ballpark.
Sometimes a Sargent system “split charge” can be deactivated by removing a relay, if not a bypass relay is installed running off the D+ to prevent potential problems when both systems charge at the same time.
We usually activate the DC-DC with D+ rather than simply relying on voltage detection (which used to work great with older alternators but more unpredictable with modern alternators).

Am I damaging anything (e.g. alternator) by not having one. I think I can cope with slow charge and am often on EHU?

 

[RogerIvy]

When we ran tests using 100Ah, 230AH, 280AH and 300AH batteries connected directly to the alternator (or starter battery) we were pretty sure that both the alternator and EBL/wiring were fine with the 100AH. The others would have a period of reasonably high amp draw (over 50A).
So do you absolutely need it? You won’t know until you test it out. Can your system cope with a draw of over 50A? Probably, depends on your particular system. Many modern motorhomes could cope with with a 50A draw due to the thickness of the wires, robustness split charge relays etc. If that current passes through the actual EBL, something could fry (a very expensive fry).

Please note we’ve only tested our own batteries. Don’t know about other makes.

 

[jezport]

Nope they didn’t fit one! Unbelievable

Then its not fit for purpose!

 

[jumar]

Am I damaging anything (e.g. alternator) by not having one. I think I can cope with slow charge and am often on EHU?

The bottom line is do you really need to change anything, as you have written above that you are often on EHU...
Is your current 60ah lithium not enough for off grid events in-between EHU usage.

 

[BOOMEL]

We got a 100ah Fogstar from our old motorhome, the van came with a 60ah, seems a shame not to use it. It is the Sargent EC700 that come with Autosleepers vans. Unbelievable that having installed a Lithium from the factory they did not include DC to DC charger. They offered a 100ah lithium upgrade from 60ah which makes me feel that the wiring can cope with it, however does look thin.

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[Pausim]

Am I damaging anything (e.g. alternator) by not having one. I think I can cope with slow charge and am often on EHU?

You might well cope without a B2B when you are using EHU. The bigger problem is that the split charge relay can drain your leisure battery instead of charging it. The relay is a crude device that links the 2 batteries in parallel when the engine is running, on the false assumption that current will flow from the engine battery to the leisure battery. With a long enough journey the 2 batteries should settle at about the same level of voltage by the end of the journey because they are linked and effectively become one battery. With a smart alternator the electronic engine control will be keeping the linked batteries at an artificially low voltage of say 12.3V - 12.5V, this is to make sure there is room for power recovery when the vehicle is slowing down. If you start a journey with a fully charged leisure battery there is a fair chance it will have been drained down to a lower level by the time you arrive.

The problem gets even worse when the leisure battery is Lithium because they run and charge to a higher voltage than a lead acid battery. You might start the journey with a fully charged Li sitting at say 13.3V but the relay will link it to an engine battery that wants to be at about 12.5V so the charge will flow out of the leisure battery to the engine battery and the smart alternator will say thank you very much I can have the morning off because something else is charging the battery. If your Li battery drops to 12.5V it might well be less than half charged.

If your wiring is “thin” as you say at #25 then this may slow the drain down to some extent.

 

[autorouter]

re install of Sargent dc to dc charger install.

From looking at their website, I can see that the Sargent DC-DC chargers are 20A. This is a bit minimalist for a lithium battery. 20A is the maximum recommended amps for a typical 100Ah lead-acid-based leisure battery, so it is a safe option for a manufacturer to fit. Also because it is only 20A, the current can be sent through the EC700 unit with its built-in split charge relay, and won't overload it. If you did that, there would be no need to disable the split charge relay because the charging amps would be routed though it.

However if you wanted a DC-DC charger (B2B) that pushed out more oomphs, like 60A, then you'd have to wire it directly to the batteries, not through the EC700. This higher amps would be suitable for a lithium battery, which can take a much higher charging current than lead-acid types. In that case you would need to find a way of disabling the inbuilt split charge relay in the EC700, and fixing any resulting problems. Not especially difficult for an installer, but just needs care.

 

[ontheroadagain]

Quite a few Brit vans don't have them, yep I know unbelievable.

Not just Brit vans. Our 2022 (built 2021) Adria doesn't have a B2B.
It also doesn't appear to have a smart alternator as the voltage is constant with the engine running.
Fortunately no stop/start either.

 

[BOOMEL]

From looking at their website, I can see that the Sargent DC-DC chargers are 20A. This is a bit minimalist for a lithium battery. 20A is the maximum recommended amps for a typical 100Ah lead-acid-based leisure battery, so it is a safe option for a manufacturer to fit. Also because it is only 20A, the current can be sent through the EC700 unit with its built-in split charge relay, and won't overload it. If you did that, there would be no need to disable the split charge relay because the charging amps would be routed though it.

However if you wanted a DC-DC charger (B2B) that pushed out more oomphs, like 60A, then you'd have to wire it directly to the batteries, not through the EC700. This higher amps would be suitable for a lithium battery, which can take a much higher charging current than lead-acid types. In that case you would need to find a way of disabling the inbuilt split charge relay in the EC700, and fixing any resulting problems. Not especially difficult for an installer, but just needs care.

So it’s safe to put in a 100ah lithium and accept that it will charge slowly because it is going through the Sargent ec700?