Control panel failure

[John Russell]

Finished packing this afternoon and went to the Clou to drive to the ferry. Turned on the habitation power at the control panel and... nothing. It's dead.

We're traveling through Germany to Chamonix for the next few days so if I can't sort it, maybe I can find someone who can.

The panel is a CBE C2010 from 2001.

There's a second switch by the door and whilst I can hear a relay click, the screen stays blank and there's no internal power.

The solar controller shows the batteries are fully charged.

The RCD and fuses look fine.

I haven't tried holding the power on button for ten seconds, or that and 'Prog', which were recommended in another thread.

Up until now it hasn't had any problems, except before being stored for winter, it stopped displaying voltage although everything else worked.

I have a multimeter with me but I'm not sure where on the panel to check for a voltage.

Any suggestions gratefully received!

 

[jongood]

Hi Jon, try jiggling the 12v breakers in the electrics box, contacts can get a bit furry.

 

[Tigger-Tim]

I don't know about the 210, but the later models have a capacitor on the board which acts like a battery to retain the time when the panel is powered down. That capacitor can become faulty. It can be removed if you're happy to enter the time each power up.

 

[John Russell]

I've switched the breakers on and off a few times, no dice.

Last time I switched the power off I used the low down switch by the entrance rather than the control panel as usual.

So it may be the switch although I can hear a relay click when I press it.

I'd like to test whether power is getting to the control panel. Here's the plug - any idea which two colours carry the power?

Tigger-Tim Here's the board. Which capacitor are we talking about? Wouldn't the board still power on if that were eol?

And here's the front panel

Driving to Dusseldorf now, will look at it again when we park.

J

 

[John Russell]

It looks like it's getting power.

From the yellow 3rd from right there's ~+12.5V, and the white 2nd from right there's ~+13.4V to the grey on the left and green on the right.

The solar charger is reporting 13.7V so white should be +ve power from the leisure batteries.
We're South of Düsseldorf this morning and looking for a workshop which can help with this.

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[funflair]

Hi John

I don't know if it is a active forum still but you might have a read on, http://cloufreunde.com/showthread.php?tid=414&page=3 this one thread I had a brief read of said that it was indeed the capacitor that had caused the posters problem, the other thing that you mention though is about not displaying voltage, again on Cloufruende there was a suggestion that if the brain doesn't see voltage of the habitation batteries it might shut down or not allow the system top start up.

Good luck.

EDIT you might want to read this as well John as it talks about the forum moving, http://www.cloufreunde.com/portal.php

 

[funflair]

It looks like it's getting power.

From the yellow 3rd from right there's ~+12.5V, and the white 2nd from right there's ~+13.4V to the grey on the left and green on the right.

The solar charger is reporting 13.7V so white should be +ve power from the leisure batteries.
We're South of Düsseldorf this morning and looking for a workshop which can help with this.

John, you are not a million miles from N+B at Polch and Reipert are just over the road and know these old Clou's, reading on Cloufreunde somebody got a wiring diagram for their c2010 from N+B.

 

[John Russell]

Good thinking Martin! Only a small diversion, although Google sent us over a narrow hilly route rather than the easier way round, and interesting to visit Pilch.

We arrived shortly before 4pm closing time, to a deserted shed. There were a couple of bemused would-be customers wandering around also looking for someone to speak to.

After going round the whole place I spotted a sales assistant who told me the Service Department had left for the weekend at 2pm and I could try Rieperts.

He didn't mention Rieperts are across the road so I spent rather longer driving there. Rieperts are fully booked until July and can't help.

Walked back to the salesman at N&B who told me to email Service, but couldn't say whether they might be able to look at it on Monday, or Tuesday, or at all, as Service is another department.

I'm loath to wait til Monday to find out they can't do anything - do you have any idea whether they are flexible? It would be a surprise but hey!

I'll read up on Cloufreunde, fitting a capacitor should be an easy fix if I can get one.

A stopgap would be to connect the leisure batteries to the pump. Any ideas?

 

[John Russell]

funflair Thanks for the link Martin, interesting but not sure this is the problem.

Their fault was in the EBL = Elektroblock, not delivering power to the control panel. Unfortunately they don't give readings at the CP, but their CP was coming on briefly.

The CP has 7 lines coming in, between two of which I've measured full battery voltage.

There are four sensors for:

• Gas
• Water
• Grey waste
• Black waste

And a voltage from the chassis batteries.

Are these multiplexed by the EBL to provide control functions? What do you think?

Due to Digikamper's takeover of Cloufreunde, I haven't been able to post there, but I'll look through the two previous incarnations of their site. Well done for spotting that portal link btw it took me a while to figure out what had happened!

 

[funflair]

funflair Thanks for the link Martin, interesting but not sure this is the problem.

Their fault was in the EBL = Elektroblock, not delivering power to the control panel. Unfortunately they don't give readings at the CP, but their CP was coming on briefly.

The CP has 7 lines coming in, between two of which I've measured full battery voltage.

There are four sensors for:

• Gas
• Water
• Grey waste
• Black waste

And a voltage from the chassis batteries.

Are these multiplexed by the EBL to provide control functions? What do you think?

Due to Digikamper's takeover of Cloufreunde, I haven't been able to post there, but I'll look through the two previous incarnations of their site. Well done for spotting that portal link btw it took me a while to figure out what had happened!

Hi John

I read EBL but they were talking about c2010 so that EBL was being used as a generic term for the CBE control box, is that the brain of yours all behind the control panel? there must be another box somewhere with heavier connections in

Are you on LinerTreff ? Joseph from Comm-Works runs LT and digicamper so if you are on LT digicamper is an easy jump, again if you are on LT there is a guy on there who seems to be well informed on old Clou's, his forum name is Zausels_guy.

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[John Russell]

The EBL looks like the controller rather than just power fuses and rcds. It has to be supplying multiple channels down one cable for the control panel to require only 7 lines.

Which means Elektroblok problems can cause odd CP problems.

Yes I'm on LinerTreff. The takeover by Digicamper meant I lost access to my own threads. I'll try to sort out Cloufreunde.

 

[jongood]

The EBL looks like the controller rather than just power fuses and rcds. It has to be supplying multiple channels down one cable for the control panel to require only 7 lines.

Which means Elektroblok problems can cause odd CP problems.

View attachment 731619

Yes I'm on LinerTreff. The takeover by Digicamper meant I lost access to my own threads. I'll try to sort out Cloufreunde.

I dont think any of it is canbus. Have you checked that you ve got power to the busbar and the still got power the other side of the breakers? Really is a case of checking through the stages and seeing where the interuption is, start at the l batteries checking the posts clamps are nice and tight and its got a good earth, then shunt (which has couple of fuses) then work your way forward. You chased around with your heating and it was something simple in the end.

 

[John Russell]

No it isn't canbus but the intelligence is in the M2010. I've got power at the CP, and I checked batteries, connections first, got 13.4V to 13.7V on the breakers.

13.4V out has a high resistance so I'm trying to remove it, but not too sure how they work. Loosened both screws and took out the outlet cables. It's loose but not coming out yet.

 

[John Russell]

Fwiw the shunts were checked six months ago; I rechecked and they are still tight.

There's 13.7V on the M2010, and the control panel, thanks to solar charging.

With a bit of help from jongood I removed the flaky breaker and temporarily wired a fuse in instead. The CP remains completely dead.

It would be good to wire the water pump to the batteries as a stopgap.

 

[TheBig1]

Have you tried unplugging the control panel to reset it?

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[John Russell]

Yes, and to check the voltages on the supply.

 

[John Russell]

I removed the test fuse yesterday so the Aux circuit is disconnected.

Heating was working this morning, we had a light flurry of snow, but now won't start.

 

[John Russell]

Our control panel was fixed this morning thanks to generous help from Joe_hidden from the Cloufreunde forum, and the electrics are working again.

Three traces on the PCB under the NiCad battery were corroded by exudate from the battery.

It's a long-term issue of NiCad batteries - by design rather than failure - it was still putting out a reasonable voltage whilst the internal chemicals were slowly being forced out by oxidation.

Joe bridged the three tiny broken traces with copper wire - very finicky work using a microscope - and replaced the battery with an NCR18650BD 3.7V Li-ion battery and a small UPS circuit to maintain a voltage of around 4.4-4.8V.

The electrics are working again and I'll post a more detailed description of the resolution in case it helps anyone else.

In the meantime I would urge all users of older, say 10+ years old CBE panels to look for signs of corrosion or whitening on the battery terminals.

It's much easier to remove the battery before it causes permanent damage, and fit a replacement, than to repair a damaged circuit board.

If your panel has a NiCad battery and there are signs of exudate / whitening on the terminals, cut it out and replace it.

I'll post the story in due course, as I haven't seen a detailed explanation elsewhere.

 

[funflair]

Good result John

 

[TheBig1]

This is quite common on PCBs on other equipment too, as the old Ni-Cad batteries have a very finite life. Good idea to swap out to an 18650, which is Li-Ion with a small boost converter. The corroded copper tracks are only microns thick, so very little there on the fibreglass. You were lucky to find somebody with the skills and kit to effect the repair

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[John Russell]

Yes!

 

[jongood]

Our control panel was fixed this morning thanks to generous help from Joe_hidden from the Cloufreunde forum, and the electrics are working again.

Three traces on the PCB under the NiCad battery were corroded by exudate from the battery.

It's a long-term issue of NiCad batteries - by design rather than failure - it was still putting out a reasonable voltage whilst the internal chemicals were slowly being forced out by oxidation.

Joe bridged the three tiny broken traces with copper wire - very finicky work using a microscope - and replaced the battery with an NCR18650BD 3.7V Li-ion battery and a small UPS circuit to maintain a voltage of around 4.4-4.8V.

The electrics are working again and I'll post a more detailed description of the resolution in case it helps anyone else.

In the meantime I would urge all users of older, say 10+ years old CBE panels to look for signs of corrosion or whitening on the battery terminals.

It's much easier to remove the battery before it causes permanent damage, and fit a replacement, than to repair a damaged circuit board.

If your panel has a NiCad battery and there are signs of exudate / whitening on the terminals, cut it out and replace it.

I'll post the story in due course, as I haven't seen a detailed explanation elsewhere.

Great result John.

 

[bobandjanie]

Glad your sorted, we had that problem with our Eura Mobil, but luckily we was just leaving for Spain and diverted to Germany on route and got a replacement panel, that was 2010 and even though we have changed motorhomes a couple of times I never turn the control panel Off just in case it doesn't come on again. Bob.