Changing to Lithium

[BillWeb]

What changes do I need to require from an installer of a new lithium setup? Not confident to self install.
Existing is pretty much what came from Auto-Trail in 2008 (not the original battery of course). No Victron. Plenty of room under the seating where the lead acid Platinum brand battery sits.

 

[Lenny HB]

You prbably need to upgrade your chargers to ones with Lithium profiles to get the best performance. The mains charger an the solar controller.
You will also need to fit a B2B to replace the split charge relay for charging when driving.

 

[Jo662]

We had a Victron multiplus charger/inverter and a B2B fitted when we had our lithium fitted.

 

[jumar]

We had a Victron multiplus charger/inverter and a B2B fitted when we had our lithium fitted.

I fitted individual units to support my Lithium conversion, with the understanding that if one failed I didn't have to change all three ..so far a wise move....which I've found works very efficiently....

 

[Hoovie]

What changes do I need to require from an installer of a new lithium setup? Not confident to self install.
Existing is pretty much what came from Auto-Trail in 2008 (not the original battery of course). No Victron. Plenty of room under the seating where the lead acid Platinum brand battery sits.

Your vintage of Autotrail probably has the same charging kit as my 2008 (2007 Model Year) Autotrail has.
Pretty well as Lenny has described... The Mains charger built into the Sargent unit is inadequte for Lithium, as is the split charge system.
I'd recommend a separate Mains/EHU charger. (The original one still has a use however - you could use it for the starter battery on occasion).
I'd got for a B2B, using fresh cabling from starter battery to leisure battery via the B2B. This is easily done in your layout. The original split-charge needs to be disabled. This can be done in various ways, so discuss with the installer what he proposes (there is no single "right way").
If you have factory-fitted or dealer-fitted solar, chances are it is a cheap and pretty nasty controller so should be replaced as well almost certainly.
I would not replace any Autotrail wiring on the install, but just have new wiring for the new chargers and bypass the Sargent for all charging functions and just use it for the 12V distribution and control.
You need some kind of State of Charge Monitor to see battery status. The info on the Sargent control panel will not be any use for battery condition with a Lithium setup. I would recommend a Victron BMV-712. If you are fitting a single lithium battery you could go for one with a smart BMS with a built-in SOC monitor, but for multiple batteries, an external one is much less faffing around to let you see the battery bank as a whole.

In terms of location, sounds like you have similar front lounge seating to me with benches behind the cab seats? I had 2 batteries in an external locker in my Autotrail 635, but when I redid the battery setup I moved the battery location inside and replaced them. Under the front bench behind the driver's seat I now have 5 X 100Ah batteries and the 60A B2B taking up approx 1/3rd of the 6' long seat. Pretty compact really and works well. The rest of the kit (Solar controllers, Victron Multiplus, and a whole bunch of other stuff) I have in another external locker out the way.
This was a fair bit more work and I would not expect a typical installer to do more than a basic install unless you are willing to pay a fair bit extra (TBH, the only way to get the most optimum and tidiest setup is to do it yourself or be willing to pay top dollar to someone to do it for you, and I am not sure paying top dollar prices for labour is the right thing to do on 15+ year old Motorhomes like you and I have?)

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[BillWeb]

In terms of location, sounds like you have similar front lounge seating to me with benches behind the cab seats? I had 2 batteries in an external locker in my Autotrail 635, but when I redid the battery setup I moved the battery location inside and replaced them. Under the front bench behind the driver's seat I now have 5 X 100Ah batteries and the 60A B2B taking up approx 1/3rd of the 6' long seat. Pretty compact really and works well. The rest of the kit (Solar controllers, Victron Multiplus, and a whole bunch of other stuff) I have in another external locker out the way.
This was a fair bit more work and I would not expect a typical installer to do more than a basic install unless you are willing to pay a fair bit extra (TBH, the only way to get the most optimum and tidiest setup is to do it yourself or be willing to pay top dollar to someone to do it for you, and I am not sure paying top dollar prices for labour is the right thing to do on 15+ year old Motorhomes like you and I have?)

Very helpful response. Thank you. But after all that, have you gone down the route of multiple AGM batteries and no lithium? I don't know that I require your extent of battery storage but I am willing to install two new 100Ah instead of one new lithium. And in which case, would that mean different install setup?
BTW, my solar controller is an ivt SCDplus.

 

[headlight]

Your solar controller is a PWM unit, MPPT solar controllers are around 30% more efficient at harvesting.

 

[Hoovie]

Very helpful response. Thank you. But after all that, have you gone down the route of multiple AGM batteries and no lithium? I don't know that I require your extent of battery storage but I am willing to install two new 100Ah instead of one new lithium. And in which case, would that mean different install setup?
BTW, my solar controller is an ivt SCDplus.

I know nothing about that solar controller. It sounds quite fancy will you be wanting to add more panels to the roof? if so , even if the solar is lithium compatible, it may not be powerful enough (just an observation to maybe come back?
My setup is a little unusual battery wise.
Initially when I got the van in 2020, I swapped out the 2 x 100Ah AGM batteries for 3 x 100AH Lead Carbon batteries (The batteries were around 8 years old and worn out). At the time I did this I also bypassed ALL charging responsibility from the Sargent unit to the Multiplus for EHU charging and an Ablemail 60A B2B for 'split-charging'. Because of what I do (Motorhome electrics), I wanted the best kit of the type and could get at a better price than most (trade deals), so that is what I did. However, even if I was 'joe public', I still would have bypassed the Sargent for that level of battery capacity as it is very limited in its capability (I DO actually like the Sargent PDUs and the Control Panels, but the chargers they put in them are awful).
I later added 2 x 100Ah of Lithium Batteries to work in parallel with the Lead and that has given me an excellent battery setup, better than 100% Lead and actually better than 100% Lithium, and at a much better cost (even at retail prices).

Ok, your comment ... "

but I am willing to install two new 100Ah instead of one new lithium

Now this is my suggestion to you based on that comment.... DO NOT GO LITHIUM.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Lithium Batteries, but the cost of going Lithium is much more than the Battery. You have the SOC Monitor, updating the Chargers, and the cost of the installation labour if paying someone to do it.
I would fit a pair of Lead Carbon Batteries, and specifically these ones - https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/1...ad-carbon-ultra-deep-cycle-battery-dc12-100c/.
You could get away with using the same systems you have already installed, but with a pair of batteries that you can if need be drain further than standard Lead Acid batteries (no "don't go below 50% or you will kill them" nonsense); are happy to sit partially charged, and will charge faster than standard Lead Acid (IF you upgraded the chargers to allow that - not a bad idea regardless). Those two will give you around 50% more USEABLE capacity than a single 100AH Lithium at a lot less than half the price once you factor in all the bits and pieces needed to properly go Lithium. What you lose out on undoubtedly is Lithiums excellent ability to fast charge, but that comes at a significant cost!

These are showing out of stock, but I think (hope, as I want two next week!) they are back in stock in approx a weeks time when the delivery arrives at Alpha.

 

[BillWeb]

I'm very happy and impressed with your suggestion/s, Hoovie. Much as it may seem incomprehensible to you, there are quite a lot of us who know next to nothing about batteries, charging, etc. And consequently it would be way beyond my level of confidence to not only install these batteries but more particularly to change the charging setup, and have peace of mind that I had done any of it properly.
So the question that follows on from that is where to get the batteries and charger and have them correctly installed and integrated into the MH's monitoring and control setup.
And come to it, I little understand the differences and benefits of B2B, which I'd never heard of, and split charging.
Many thanks again. Greatly appreciated.

 

[BillWeb]

Your solar controller is a PWM unit, MPPT solar controllers are around 30% more efficient at harvesting.

Would an MPPT installation be as easy as swapping one for the other using existing wiring connections?

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[berni109]

Lots of good info there BillWeb .
But what do you want to get out of new battery/s setup?
Pitched up for 1 week without hookup and only solar in the height of summer?
All year touring and driving around so engine can recharge?
How many amphours are you using while camped up?
Do you have an inverter for 240v off of your battery?

Many funsters have spent £000's on their power setup but they know how much they need for their style of motorhoming.

 

[BillWeb]

Lots of good info there BillWeb .
But what do you want to get out of new battery/s setup?
Pitched up for 1 week without hookup and only solar in the height of summer?
All year touring and driving around so engine can recharge?
How many amphours are you using while camped up?
Do you have an inverter for 240v off of your battery?

Many funsters have spent £000's on their power setup but they know how much they need for their style of motorhoming.

Great questions.
1. I am a sole all year tour and driving type. Engine recharge yes please.
2. If I find a nice free camping spot I like the ability to pause there for a week or so.
3. Pretty low usage. Lights, fridge on gas, occasional gas water heating for shower, pump and keeping laptop recharged (12v is not adequate for this). Have a 2000W pure sine wave inverter.
4. Occasional use of 21.5in digital tv via internet desirable.

 

[Lenny HB]

Would an MPPT installation be as easy as swapping one for the other using existing wiring connections?View attachment 700665

Yes it would be a straight swap.
I don't know how much solar you have but those cables look a bit on the small side. Also where is the controller mounted in relation to the batteries?

 

[headlight]

Great questions.
1. I am a sole all year tour and driving type. Engine recharge yes please.
2. If I find a nice free camping spot I like the ability to pause there for a week or so.
3. Pretty low usage. Lights, fridge on gas, occasional gas water heating for shower, pump and keeping laptop recharged (12v is not adequate for this). Have a 2000W pure sine wave inverter.
4. Occasional use of 21.5in digital tv via internet desirable.

Your usage sounds pretty similar to mine ie low amps drain so unless you want to start using high amp drain items I can't see the need for lithium.
My set up is 2 x 100AH lead acid leisure batteries, 115 watt solar panel, Victron 75/15 MPPT solar controller and a 60 amp B2B.
I have a small inverter to run a 24' TV.
With this set up I was off electric hook up in the same spot for 24 consecutive nights in the summer relying solely on solar.
With the B2B my leisure batteries are charged at approximately 5 times the rate my split charge did when my engine is running which is ideal outside of summer when solar is poor.
I would give Vanbitz's a call if you're not confident fitting yourself.
You will get a 10% funsters discount and a free night on their site at Taunton so they can start installation early in the morning.
How many watts is your solar panel ?

 

[berni109]

the inverter could be the killer here, how much do you use it? A 12V to 19V charger should be available for the laptop but does the TV run off 12v?
How long does your current setup give you sufficient power for?

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[BillWeb]

the inverter could be the killer here, how much do you use it? A 12V to 19V charger should be available for the laptop but does the TV run off 12v?
How long does your current setup give you sufficient power for?

Yes, off 12v.

 

[BillWeb]

Yes it would be a straight swap.
I don't know how much solar you have but those cables look a bit on the small side. Also where is the controller mounted in relation to the batteries?

Controller in overhead cupboard near other electrics. Batteries under seat below that cupboard.

 

[Lenny HB]

Controller in overhead cupboard near other electrics. Batteries under seat below that cupboard.

It is best to have the controller near to the batteries if you are leaving up in the cupboard you need to increase the cable size if you only have 200 watts of panels 6 mm sq cable should be OK.

 

[Hoovie]

I'm very happy and impressed with your suggestion/s, Hoovie. Much as it may seem incomprehensible to you, there are quite a lot of us who know next to nothing about batteries, charging, etc. And consequently it would be way beyond my level of confidence to not only install these batteries but more particularly to change the charging setup, and have peace of mind that I had done any of it properly.

I fully appreciate that others are not familiar with batteries, chargers, etc to the same level of others, so I do try to post descriptions hopefully bearing that in mind, and can understand why changing the chargers is very often not a DIY job for many. (I have no doubt that I would have no clue how to do the jobs of many folk that are not comfortable with doing charger installs).
A Battery installation is a fair bit simplier, but even then many people don't like to do that for various reasons. As an FYI, I suggested the batteries from Alpha Batteries as they are a very good battery and from a very good supplier - and as it happens Alpha are just introducing a fitting service as well in the New Year, so that is a possible option for a "one stop shop" for you? They are based in Rochdale.

Your Inverter is far too big for the configuration you have. If it is to run a Laptop charger, something like a 300W inverter tops is what you need. The bigger the inverter the more wasteful it can be on low loads, so if you have the inverter on a lot for the laptop you are wasting a fair amount of power.

So the question that follows on from that is where to get the batteries and charger and have them correctly installed and integrated into the MH's monitoring and control setup.
And come to it, I little understand the differences and benefits of B2B, which I'd never heard of, and split charging.

Split Charging is a bit of a generic term to describe the situation where the vehicle alternator is charging the Vehicle Battery AND the Leisure Battery.
A Battery-to-Battery (B2B) charger is generally the best way to achieve this as it provides voltage levels and charge profiles suitable to charge the Leisure Battery.
The other way is a relay (which is basically an automated switch) that just connects the Starter and Leisure Batteries together when the engine is running. This is a significantly cheaper option and is the one in the Sargent unit. It does not tend to charge the batteries in the best way.
The way you describe your camping style, I think a B2B would be a very worthwhile investment and probably more so than any solar upgrades, if you had to chose one or other.

Many thanks again. Greatly appreciated.

 

[Hoovie]

It is best to have the controller near to the batteries if you are leaving up in the cupboard you need to increase the cable size if you only have 200 watts of panels 6 mm sq cable should be OK.

Running cables from the top cupboard to the underseat Battery location on an Autotrail is typically a total nightmare. I can pretty well guarantee that if someone is not happy fitting batteries, that cable rework is a task too big unless they run them on the surface in trunking (which IS doable but looks a bit naff).

The Sargent Units will generally take upto 150W solar and is located almost certainly close to the controller so I would think that is how it is wired up. Not ideal, but usuable. A swap to an MPPT controller is for sure a good thing to do and can be done using the same (admittedly pretty poor) cabling.
Go bigger than 150W and you would need to bypass the Sargent and go direct to the battery with the controller output.

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[BillWeb]

Your Inverter is far too big for the configuration you have. If it is to run a Laptop charger, something like a 300W inverter tops is what you need. The bigger the inverter the more wasteful it can be on low loads, so if you have the inverter on a lot for the laptop you are wasting a fair amount of power.

I inherited the inverter and everything else. Trying to set out on my own terms.

 

[BillWeb]

Running cables from the top cupboard to the underseat Battery location on an Autotrail is typically a total nightmare. I can pretty well guarantee that if someone is not happy fitting batteries, that cable rework is a task too big unless they run them on the surface in trunking (which IS doable but looks a bit naff).

The Sargent Units will generally take upto 150W solar and is located almost certainly close to the controller so I would think that is how it is wired up. Not ideal, but usuable. A swap to an MPPT controller is for sure a good thing to do and can be done using the same (admittedly pretty poor) cabling.
Go bigger than 150W and you would need to bypass the Sargent and go direct to the battery with the controller output.

Running cables from the top cupboard to the underseat Battery location on an Autotrail is typically a total nightmare. I can pretty well guarantee that if someone is not happy fitting batteries, that cable rework is a task too big unless they run them on the surface in trunking (which IS doable but looks a bit naff).

The Sargent Units will generally take upto 150W solar and is located almost certainly close to the controller so I would think that is how it is wired up. Not ideal, but usuable. A swap to an MPPT controller is for sure a good thing to do and can be done using the same (admittedly pretty poor) cabling.
Go bigger than 150W and you would need to bypass the Sargent and go direct to the battery with the controller output.

 

[berni109]

Did not see an answer to the crucial question.
Where does your current setup fall short of your requirements?

 

[BillWeb]

Did not see an answer to the crucial question.
Where does your current setup fall short of your requirements?

Sorry. Keeping/holding charge for long enough. Basically, I inherited the setup from previous owners and like to have it how I choose. I don't know how old anything is or whether it's fit for purpose.

 

[JJ]

Lithium, lithium, lithium, lithium...

I strongly suspect many folk are going "lithium" only because it's the current fashion...

How many hobbyist motorhomers actually need lithium when they spend so most of their time on campsites with their EHU plugged in?

Just saying...

JJ

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[headlight]

BillWeb what wattage solar panel/panels do you have, how many leisure batteries do you have, what is their amperage and what type are they eg lead acid, gel, AGM ?

 

[autorouter]

If you look at the front of the EC325 PSU, it says '325W 12V power supply with multistage 'offline' charging'. This means that when EHU is connected, the habitation circuits are disconnected from the leisure batteries, and are supplied by a dedicated 22A power supply.

The leisure batteries are then charged by a separate multistage intelligent charger, so that they are fully topped up ready for when the EHU is not connected. All this switching happens automatically, using relays (electrically operated switches) triggered when the EHU is connected.

If you are fitting lithium batteries and a new charger with a lithium profile, you need to take this into account. Not too difficult, but may be a bit unusual for those used to a single charger, plus a leisure battery always connected to the habitation circuits. I don't know the details of the EC325 charger, battery connections and switchover.

For example, it might be enough to just disable the intelligent battery charging, leaving the 22A power supply to do its thing, and wire the new charger direct to the leisure batteries. It would probably switch over like before when the EHU is connected/disconnected.

 

[headlight]

With BillWeb proposed usage/needs ie no heavy drain items like hair dryers, microwave, compressor fridge, coffee maker etc I don't see that he has the need for a lithium set up.
In summer based on his proposed usage I guess he'd only be using around 20-25 amps per day and in winter maybe 50 amps per day.
Pretty much the same usage as me.

 

[berni109]

Given that it ain't broke then I would be inclined to ditch the inverter and add another similar battery and get a car charger for the laptop. (Provided the onboard charger can support both batteries).
Any doubt about the condition of current battery then get 2 new gel or perhaps the carbon ones mentioned above. AGM tend to get a bad press on here and I would not use them again. (Same comment on charger)
Next up would be to increase solar panels on the roof and a new mppt controller (With lithium settings for the future) connected directly to the batteries. See previous comments about wire sizes. I have a votronic unit which works well for me with trickle charge to starter battery as well and basic charging or charged lights.
If you then run out of power a BtoB unit to bypass the current split charge arrangement.
Since you need to get this work done then it might be cheaper in the long run to get it into a workshop and hve it all done together rather than having it done incrementally.