Can I fit a Lithium Battery on my 2010 Dethleffs advantage

[stuartforrest]

I have spoken to a Lifepo battery supplier and they have said I would need to replace the chargers that are built into my motorhome. I have an Electroblock EBL220-2 and we have a solar panel as well as 240v charging and normal driving battery charging. They have said I would need three new chargers but couldnt advise if I needed to rip out the EBL22O. They said if I charged the Lithium battery from my existing chargers it would reduce the battery life.

I am really confused, has anyone done anything like this.
Does anyone know any installers in the north west that may know what they are doing to do this upgrade. We are based in Lancaster.

Any help appreciated

 

[Jev88]

Lithium batteries require a different charge routine to wet acid and gel(?) batteries. They also benefit from B2B charging as they can accept a huge charge rate and replenish quickly from alternator.

You can in theory turn off your onboard charger and fit a new one for the lithium batteries by plugging the new charger into a live socket on EHU.

Solar controllers will have lithium setting, if not bin it and buy a quality MPPT controller that does.

 

[funflair]

I think a B2B would be advantageous when driving as it will give a better charge, what solar controller have you got now? you might benefit from a new MPPT with LiFePO4 profile if yours is old.

And then what he said above as I was too slow.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

This may or may not be of interest/relevance regarding your EBL and setting to Gel mode for use with lithium batteries:

Post in thread 'Lithium batteries'
https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/lithium-batteries.252429/post-4797061

You may need a new solar controller(s) with a lithium charging profile. B2B with lithium profile is often recommended too.

 

[Stealaway]

I have spoken to a Lifepo battery supplier and they have said I would need to replace the chargers that are built into my motorhome. I have an Electroblock EBL220-2 and we have a solar panel as well as 240v charging and normal driving battery charging. They have said I would need three new chargers but couldnt advise if I needed to rip out the EBL22O. They said if I charged the Lithium battery from my existing chargers it would reduce the battery life.

I am really confused, has anyone done anything like this.
Does anyone know any installers in the north west that may know what they are doing to do this upgrade. We are based in Lancaster.

Any help appreciated

More reasons for me not to bother with Lithium.
I was always worried about ruining £600 of batteries because of the charging problems.
So now it seems I would also have to replace many other expensive bits.
I'll stick with my pair of standard £200 L/A leisure batteries that seem to last me five years

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[stuartforrest]

I am even more confused. EHU and MMPT.

 

[stuartforrest]

P

More reasons for me not to bother with Lithium.
I was always worried about ruining £600 of batteries because of the charging problems.
So now it seems I would also have to replace many other expensive bits.
I'll stick with my pair of standard £200 L/A leisure batteries that seem to last me five years

Problem with leisure batteries are they are hopeless with our inverter.

 

[Boringfrog]

I am even more confused. EHU and MMPT.

EHU = electric hook up
MPPT = Maximum power point tracking

Link to MPPT Here

 

[Stealaway]

I have a 2x 130a L/A batteries and a 1000w Inverter that has worked perfectly for 3 years. We only watch TV for three hours of an evening .

 

[autorouter]

I have spoken to a Lifepo battery supplier and they have said I would need to replace the chargers that are built into my motorhome. I have an Electroblock EBL220-2 and we have a solar panel as well as 240v charging and normal driving battery charging. They have said I would need three new chargers but couldnt advise if I needed to rip out the EBL22O. They said if I charged the Lithium battery from my existing chargers it would reduce the battery life.

The EBL220 has a mains charger built in. However the EBL is very flexible on this, no need to think about ripping it out.

The internal mains charger can be disabled simply by removing the fuse marked 'Int-Lademodul' (= internal charger module) on the front panel of the EBL. Not only that, but another charger can be connected via the 'Zus-Lader' (= auxiliary charger) connector on the front of the EBL. This connector goes to the leisure battery via the fuse marked 'Zus-Lader', which needs to be inserted for any power to flow. In fact on the EBL220 there are two Zus-Lader connectors and two fuses.

However those inputs are fused at 25A. If you were thinking of a more powerful charger, you could maybe just wire it directly to the batteries rather than routing it through the EBL. Lithium batteries can usually take a faster charge rate than lead-acids, so that is a good option for some. As against that, normally if EHU is available, it's for a long time, usually overnight at least. Fast charging from EHU is not usually a top priority, and a 20A charger is OK.

The existing arrangement to charge the battery from the alternator while driving is a relay that connects the leisure battery and starter batteries together. That relay is called the split charge relay, and is inside the EBL. When it's on, the alternator charges them both as one big battery. Because both batteries are usually lead-acid, that works reasonably well. It's not so good for lithium batteries, although it's not as bad as you might think. Ideally a Battery-to-Battery (B2B) charger, also called a booster or DC-DC charger, should be used for the lithium battery. If a B2B is fitted, the existing split charge relay must be disabled somehow, so as not to cause problems with the B2B charger.

There are two types of solar controller, PWM and MPPT. PWM works well, especially in strong sunlight and high temperatures. MPPT works just as well in strong sunlight, but is better in cloudy conditions and low light, and can yield an extra few percent of solar power when conditions are not ideal. For a lithium battery, the solar controller should have a lithium charging profile. I don't think many PWMs have a lithium profile, you'd need an MPPT, which is better anyway.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Raul]

I have a 2x 130a L/A batteries and a 1000w Inverter that has worked perfectly for 3 years. We only watch TV for three hours of an evening .

If you let me pull, 100 cycles with that 1000w inverter, I can assure you those leads are boat anchors in less than 3 months. The only way you get 5 years out of them is with the inverter off, or very little inverting.
I live off grid and gone trough some lead battery banks. Be realistic.

 

[jumar]

The EBL220 has a mains charger built in. However the EBL is very flexible on this, no need to think about ripping it out.

The internal mains charger can be disabled simply by removing the fuse marked 'Int-Lademodul' (= internal charger module) on the front panel of the EBL. Not only that, but another charger can be connected via the 'Zus-Lader' (= auxiliary charger) connector on the front of the EBL. This connector goes to the leisure battery via the fuse marked 'Zus-Lader', which needs to be inserted for any power to flow. In fact on the EBL220 there are two Zus-Lader connectors and two fuses.

However those inputs are fused at 25A. If you were thinking of a more powerful charger, you could maybe just wire it directly to the batteries rather than routing it through the EBL. Lithium batteries can usually take a faster charge rate than lead-acids, so that is a good option for some. As against that, normally if EHU is available, it's for a long time, usually overnight at least. Fast charging from EHU is not usually a top priority, and a 20A charger is OK.

The existing arrangement to charge the battery from the alternator while driving is a relay that connects the leisure battery and starter batteries together. That relay is called the split charge relay, and is inside the EBL. When it's on, the alternator charges them both as one big battery. Because both batteries are usually lead-acid, that works reasonably well. It's not so good for lithium batteries, although it's not as bad as you might think. Ideally a Battery-to-Battery (B2B) charger, also called a booster or DC-DC charger, should be used for the lithium battery. If a B2B is fitted, the existing split charge relay must be disabled somehow, so as not to cause problems with the B2B charger.

There are two types of solar controller, PWM and MPPT. PWM works well, especially in strong sunlight and high temperatures. MPPT works just as well in strong sunlight, but is better in cloudy conditions and low light, and can yield an extra few percent of solar power when conditions are not ideal. For a lithium battery, the solar controller should have a lithium charging profile. I don't think many PWMs have a lithium profile, you'd need an MPPT, which is better anyway.

I would be interested to know how to disable the split charger as I intend fitting a B2B..
My Hymer has an ELB 100.... I've watched endless YouTube videos on fitting a Victron DC to DC ...but non of them go down the route to disable an existing 12v charger..
This has concerned me for a while...can you offer anything more?

 

[colyboy]

First of all our van was new when we bought it. We asked the dealer to swop the leisure battery for two lithium, from KS Energy (10%f funster discount). KS assured me that it was just a “drop in“ job. Which it was , the van is now 18 months old and we have had no problems with them. They are brilliant.

Colyboy

 

[pj650]

First of all our van was new when we bought it. We asked the dealer to swop the leisure battery for two lithium, from KS Energy (10%f funster discount). KS assured me that it was just a “drop in“ job. Which it was , the van is now 18 months old and we have had no problems with them. They are brilliant.

Colyboy

Does your van use an Elektrobloc? Our new lithium is being delivered this morning, and we had the same assurance from KS. Our van uses Elektrobloc.
Peter

 

[tonka]

Problem with leisure batteries are they are hopeless with our inverter.

What are you trying to run ??

I have the same EBL on my Burstner.
2 x Varta lead batteries.
2 solar panels (size unknown but assuming 100 0r 120w each) connected through a Votronic MPPT regulator.
We use an 1100w Kreiger inverter (£69 off Amazon 3 years ago).

Wife runs an Hairdryer, we use the electric toaster and we have a 1000w air fryer. It all works fine.
The batteries are fairly new, just over a year.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Pausim]

The 14.3V of the EBL charger may slightly undercharge the LiFePO4 battery but when you are on EHU who needs a fully charged battery. One of the advantages of Li over lead acid is they are not damaged by undercharging, they last even longer.

I would be interested to know how to disable the split charger as I intend fitting a B2B.

If you buy a B2B within the current (Amps) capability of the EBL it can wired through the EBL using the existing connections and split charge relay. No need to disable the relay. My Votronic B2B came with specific wiring instructions and settings for using with an EBL. I think the limit is 50A.

 

[autorouter]

At the back of the EBL there is a terminal block with three high power connections: starter battery, leisure battery and common negative. Inside the EBL, the split charge relay connects the two battery connections when the engine is running. There is obviously a limit to how many amps that current path can take. If you look at the fuses at the other ends of the wires near the starter and leisure batteries, they are probably 40A or 50A.

So if your B2B is within that range, say 30A, then you can send the amps through the relay to the leisure battery. To do this you basically cut the wire that goes to the EBL starter battery connection, and wire the B2B into the cut ends. Or disconnect the starter battery wire, connect it to the B2B input, and run a new wire to the EBL.

If the B2B is a higher power, say 60A, then it has to be wired straight between the batteries, not through the EBL. In that case, simply disconnecting the starter battery wire at the EBL will disable the split charge relay. The relay will still click on and off, but nothing will flow through it. Unlike other brands of distribution/fusebox, the other functions of the EBL will not be affected, like the 12V fridge power, or the starter battery charging on EHU, because there is another path to the starter battery from the front panel connectors.

 

[Stealaway]

If you let me pull, 100 cycles with that 1000w inverter, I can assure you those leads are boat anchors in less than 3 months. The only way you get 5 years out of them is with the inverter off, or very little inverting.
I live off grid and gone trough some lead battery banks. Be realistic.

You are obviously doing it wrong and mistreating your batteries and I only said I have a 1000w inverter not how much I load it

Just for clarification
My 130ah XL31 Hankook batteries are quotes as having a life of 250 complete cycles - or any combination.
I monitor my batteries during the evenings and turn of the TV and sound bar when the voltage drops to 12.5V - 50% discharged
So that day I have used half a cycle - I will now have 500 cycles with that usage.
I spend on average a 100 nights a year away in the van.
So if you do the calculations that would be - on average - a 5 year battery life. Just like my last set

 

[jumar]

At the back of the EBL there is a terminal block with three high power connections: starter battery, leisure battery and common negative. Inside the EBL, the split charge relay connects the two battery connections when the engine is running. There is obviously a limit to how many amps that current path can take. If you look at the fuses at the other ends of the wires near the starter and leisure batteries, they are probably 40A or 50A.

So if your B2B is within that range, say 30A, then you can send the amps through the relay to the leisure battery. To do this you basically cut the wire that goes to the EBL starter battery connection, and wire the B2B into the cut ends. Or disconnect the starter battery wire, connect it to the B2B input, and run a new wire to the EBL.

If the B2B is a higher power, say 60A, then it has to be wired straight between the batteries, not through the EBL. In that case, simply disconnecting the starter battery wire at the EBL will disable the split charge relay. The relay will still click on and off, but nothing will flow through it. Unlike other brands of distribution/fusebox, the other functions of the EBL will not be affected, like the 12V fridge power, or the starter battery charging on EHU, because there is another path to the starter battery from the front panel connectors.

Thank you so much for explaining to me something that had bothered me greatly...it's that nagging doubt about having two chargers in competition with each other.
You also covered the fridge 12v supply remaining in tact....
We are up north at the moment and I intend doing my Lithium and Victron B2B conversion on our return...
One further issue is connecting my 1500w pure sine wave inverter....this is used to charge eBike batteries...
I would like to bypass the leisure battery and use Solar only...I have one 200w panel on my roof and one free standing panel outside 150w..each with their own Victron MPPT controller..
could the inverter be connected to the mppt load connections....as you will see our solar harvest is doing well....I have a bike battery on charge...

 

[autorouter]

On the datasheet for the two MPPTs, the maximum load current is 15A and 20A for the two controllers. That's not really enough to be connecting a 1500W inverter, even if you are only using low power loads. But it's not necessary anyway.

The leisure battery acts as a reservoir for the solar power. If the bike chargers are using say 400W total, and the solar is producing say 250W, then that 250W will go straight to the inverter, plus 150W will come from the battery. When charging is finished, the solar will go to fill up the battery again.

From a practical viewpoint, you are probably out on the bikes while the sun is shining. Ideally the leisure batteries will be filling up from solar, and the bikes can be recharged overnight when you get back.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[jumar]

On the datasheet for the two MPPTs, the maximum load current is 15A and 20A for the two controllers. That's not really enough to be connecting a 1500W inverter, even if you are only using low power loads. But it's not necessary anyway.

The leisure battery acts as a reservoir for the solar power. If the bike chargers are using say 400W total, and the solar is producing say 250W, then that 250W will go straight to the inverter, plus 150W will come from the battery. When charging is finished, the solar will go to fill up the battery again.

From a practical viewpoint, you are probably out on the bikes while the sun is shining. Ideally the leisure batteries will be filling up from solar, and the bikes can be recharged overnight when you get back.

Thank you so much, I thought I'd got the theory right, but as you know, things enter your head (well in mine they do) and they need sorting...
We have managed bike charging quite well this year. We ride morning time and recharge in the afternoon, I know I can improve my system, hence the questions..so much energy is wasted whilst driving...that's going to be sorted with a B2B....as for battery power...well I will welcome the arrival of my 160Ah Lithium from Roamer...the biggest battery I can fit in the limited space I have...I will update when it's finished...

 

[stuartforrest]

The EBL220 has a mains charger built in. However the EBL is very flexible on this, no need to think about ripping it out.

The internal mains charger can be disabled simply by removing the fuse marked 'Int-Lademodul' (= internal charger module) on the front panel of the EBL. Not only that, but another charger can be connected via the 'Zus-Lader' (= auxiliary charger) connector on the front of the EBL. This connector goes to the leisure battery via the fuse marked 'Zus-Lader', which needs to be inserted for any power to flow. In fact on the EBL220 there are two Zus-Lader connectors and two fuses.

However those inputs are fused at 25A. If you were thinking of a more powerful charger, you could maybe just wire it directly to the batteries rather than routing it through the EBL. Lithium batteries can usually take a faster charge rate than lead-acids, so that is a good option for some. As against that, normally if EHU is available, it's for a long time, usually overnight at least. Fast charging from EHU is not usually a top priority, and a 20A charger is OK.

The existing arrangement to charge the battery from the alternator while driving is a relay that connects the leisure battery and starter batteries together. That relay is called the split charge relay, and is inside the EBL. When it's on, the alternator charges them both as one big battery. Because both batteries are usually lead-acid, that works reasonably well. It's not so good for lithium batteries, although it's not as bad as you might think. Ideally a Battery-to-Battery (B2B) charger, also called a booster or DC-DC charger, should be used for the lithium battery. If a B2B is fitted, the existing split charge relay must be disabled somehow, so as not to cause problems with the B2B charger.

There are two types of solar controller, PWM and MPPT. PWM works well, especially in strong sunlight and high temperatures. MPPT works just as well in strong sunlight, but is better in cloudy conditions and low light, and can yield an extra few percent of solar power when conditions are not ideal. For a lithium battery, the solar controller should have a lithium charging profile. I don't think many PWMs have a lithium profile, you'd need an MPPT, which is better anyway.

Very detailed reply thanks. I will see if I can find someone locally to do this for me

 

[stuartforrest]

What are you trying to run ??

I have the same EBL on my Burstner.
2 x Varta lead batteries.
2 solar panels (size unknown but assuming 100 0r 120w each) connected through a Votronic MPPT regulator.
We use an 1100w Kreiger inverter (£69 off Amazon 3 years ago).

Wife runs an Hairdryer, we use the electric toaster and we have a 1000w air fryer. It all works fine.
The batteries are fairly new, just over a year.

We put a 3kw inverter in but have not used anything like that much. We flattened the batteries using hardly anything.