Bloody daft councils

[PeteH]

Of course, What we are all overlooking, is the fact that, the vast majority of continental facilities where set up in a different age and political climate. And thereby already exist. "WE" would be trying to persuade "authorities" to provide facilities for a mode of transportation that is heavily criticized and frowned upon. The playing field is heavily sloped against encouraging personal transportation and independance. Within very few years "WE" are likely to be treated by the general population as many feel about the "itinerants" of today. Barely tolerated, if at all, and priced as far as possible out of our chosen recreation. In the "cause" of defeating "climate change" (Spit!). All the arguments that support what we do, are seen as nothing, by those who would have us "conform".

IMV, it is all part of the sickness in today's society, fostered by jealousy and envy.

 

[Yorick]

Of course, What we are all overlooking, is the fact that, the vast majority of continental facilities where set up in a different age and political climate. And thereby already exist. "WE" would be trying to persuade "authorities" to provide facilities for a mode of transportation that is heavily criticized and frowned upon. The playing field is heavily sloped against encouraging personal transportation and independance. Within very few years "WE" are likely to be treated by the general population as many feel about the "itinerants" of today. Barely tolerated, if at all, and priced as far as possible out of our chosen recreation. In the "cause" of defeating "climate change" (Spit!). All the arguments that support what we do, are seen as nothing, by those who would have us "conform".

IMV, it is all part of the sickness in today's society, fostered by jealousy and envy.

Imho, that was absolute Tosh. Just because you drive a camper, it doesn't make you special or give you extra rights.

 

[PeteH]

Imho, that was absolute Tosh. Just because you drive a camper, it doesn't make you special or give you extra rights.

I think you missed the point, I was giving an opinion about why I feel that in today's climate, there is so little chance of getting what the French Germans et-al have had for many years, something that was achieved in a far different political and social climate.

I don`t feel at all "special", nor do I expect any more "rights" than yourself. I can and do live with what we have, and if I "bend" a rule on "camping" here and there, So what? (Shrug). I would not argue Just move on.

I am of an age that it is likely I will not be able to continue for too many more years anyway. So those who follow "us" are more likely to be affected. A bit like B`shit really.

 

[busbuddy]

from a different viewpoint............... i drove a lorry throughout europe and north africa for over 20 years and spent many nights parked next to motorhomes in all european countries
most motorhomers (and truckers) were tidy respectful people and friendly
i find it odd that more and more people complain about not being able to park right in the middle of town for free, it seems in mainland europe motorhomers are happy to park outside of town and travel in to enjoy the local area but in the uk the expectations are that we should be able to park right on the high street for nothing because we may spend a couple of quid in the shops
slagging off local councils because they dont supply 8 metre parking spaces specifically for motorhomes when there are campsites or industrial estates (for the freecampers) close by is a bit ott as far as im concerned
my lorry was bigger than any motorhome sold on the market today and i was always able to access any town i was parked near so is the motorhome community asking too much??

 

[Yorick]

from a different viewpoint............... i drove a lorry throughout europe and north africa for over 20 years and spent many nights parked next to motorhomes in all european countries
most motorhomers (and truckers) were tidy respectful people and friendly
i find it odd that more and more people complain about not being able to park right in the middle of town for free, it seems in mainland europe motorhomers are happy to park outside of town and travel in to enjoy the local area but in the uk the expectations are that we should be able to park right on the high street for nothing because we may spend a couple of quid in the shops
slagging off local councils because they dont supply 8 metre parking spaces specifically for motorhomes when there are campsites or industrial estates (for the freecampers) close by is a bit ott as far as im concerned
my lorry was bigger than any motorhome sold on the market today and i was always able to access any town i was parked near so is the motorhome community asking too much??

You said it more succinctly.

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[cornish boy]

& there is the problem.Whilst anyone is prepared to pay such ridiculous amounts to park councils & private parking companies will continue to take the piss.

and your solution is...

 

[GJH]

Graham

I looked again at your excellent website but found no reference to foreign country restrictions, or lack of.

Maybe I should have phrased my post differently in that I wonder why other countries do not find much necessity to restrict parking/overnighting/sleeping and in many cases positively encourage it.

The UK restrictions hardly bother us as we usually only spend a few days there, and park in a village in Kent opposite the church, on a friend's farm for a couple of bottles or at Canterbury P+R where I have a good to/fro helpful relationship with the City Parking Manager and his staff at the P+R - spent 1/2 hour with him discussing their new proposed MH facility at Wincheap, with suggestions which he listened to.

Geoff

There are few references to foreign countries. Mainly Here. My post intended to point to the reasons for rules in the UK, are they are what it is concerned with.
Colin Perris, at Canterbury, has always been approachable and helpful.

 

[GJH]

I fail to see why UK councils can't offer similar.

Surely the simplist and best way forward would be for local authorities to offer selected car park areas@£10 a night with a maximum stay of say 48 hours and clamping/fines for the abusers. Win Win for all.. ?

Provision of designated parking spaces for motorhomes is easy. Assign spaces for them and a payment machine offering 12 or 24 hour parking.

Services could be provided such as fresh water, EHU and dump for an additional cost. It's easy revenue for councils at relatively low outlay.

May I suggest, then, that you write to all UK local authorities and tell them directly what the advantages (and absence of disadvantages) would be. There is a list of them Here (for the next month anyway).

 

[GJH]

It is important here to highlight the efforts of one forward looking local council when it comes to motorhome facilities. Canterbury CC has had a large dedicated area for motorhomes in one of its P&R car parks for many years. It includes water and grey and waste dump facilities and toilets open during the day and a free shuttle bus to and from the city centre. It costs £3.50 per day, so £7 if you overnight (but then £3.50 for each additional overnight). They also have a couple of motorhome friendly car parks in the Herne Bay area but they have no other facilities and are more expensive per hour, but are free from 9pm to 8am

From what we have seen the P&R facility brings in lots of visitors, many from Europe. We use it and always spend money in the city when we are there, thus helping the local economy.

If this council can overcome all the "problems" of legalities then the rest can if they wanted to. But, sadly many of them don't want to, and often for the same reason that they are allowing their city and town centres to gradually die, i.e. they are too busy concentrating on the short term "crowd pleasers", rather than the long term economic health of the area. That makes sure that the councillors get voted in time and time again.

After all in a democracy the electorate usually end up with the elected members they deserve. Maybe in other European countries the electorate deserve better and so get better.

It is also important to highlight the fact, mentioned many times, that Canterbury Council has a USP which makes their excellent facilities viable, something which does not apply to the vast majority of other councils in the country.
However, as you are so sure that it is the fault of councils which do not wish to overcome "problems" why not write to them explaining the error of their ways and showing them how advantageous it would be to them to follow Canterbury's lead? There is a list Here.

 

[PeteH]

Just boils down to the fact that the "political will" just isn't there. Not enough votes in it, bottom line. And that "times have changed", since those facilities where set up in Europe.

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[nicholsong]

There are still new Aires being opened in France and I am not referring to the commercial companies.

 

[peterc10]

It is also important to highlight the fact, mentioned many times, that Canterbury Council has a USP which makes their excellent facilities viable

However, as you are so sure that it is the fault of councils which do not wish to overcome "problems" why not write to them explaining the error of their ways and showing them how advantageous it would be to them to follow Canterbury's lead? There is a list Here.

The USP in reality means that Canterbury have got less need, not more, to cater for us motorhomers. Whenever I am there, and whatever time of the year it is, the High Street is packed with tourists who definitely did not arrive in a motorhome. Other towns and cities may have to try a bit harder to attract the tourists but that should make it even more important for them to cater for us motorhomers better.

I am afraid I am too old and too lazy to try lobbying local authorities. Head and brick wall come to mind, especially with the vested interests involved. And I do not have any spare time now that I am almost retired! Even if I was successful by the time they got round to doing anything I will be dead. Instead I will just vote with my feet, or, more aptly, my wheels. We can be in la belle France in 2 or 3 hours enjoying some of its thousands of Aires their villages, towns and cities willingly provide. And then Germany, Italy, Spain or Portugal and beyond as well.

 

[GJH]

The USP in reality means that Canterbury have got less need, not more, to cater for us motorhomers. Whenever I am there, and whatever time of the year it is, the High Street is packed with tourists who definitely did not arrive in a motorhome. Other towns and cities may have to try a bit harder to attract the tourists but that should make it even more important for them to cater for us motorhomers better.

It appears you didn't understand the USP then.

I am afraid I am too old and too lazy to try lobbying local authorities. Head and brick wall come to mind, especially with the vested interests involved. And I do not have any spare time now that I am almost retired! Even if I was successful by the time they got round to doing anything I will be dead. Instead I will just vote with my feet, or, more aptly, my wheels. We can be in la belle France in 2 or 3 hours enjoying some of its thousands of Aires their villages, towns and cities willingly provide. And then Germany, Italy, Spain or Portugal and beyond as well.

I didn't create my web site (or, indeed, start motorhoming) until I retired.
Not surprised, though, because I've seen all those excuses before. Far easier for most people to whinge than actually put some effort in.

 

[PeteH]

It appears you didn't understand the USP then.

I have no Idea what it even stands for?. even less what it is about?. I know UPS is an American Parcel Company?, Shit coloured Brown Van`s If I am Right?.

Want to enlighten?.

 

[GJH]

I have no Idea what it even stands for?. even less what it is about?. I know UPS is an American Parcel Company?, Shit coloured Brown Van`s If I am Right?.

Want to enlighten?.

Unique Selling Point.
Looking at previous posts would have found that for you.
There is also a tool called Google Search for people who don't know what something means

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[Lenny HB]

Like Peter I have given up in this country the council's apart from a few like Canterbury are so anti Motorhomes it just not worth the effort.
I suppose like Peter we live near the channel ports so it's a no brainer for us so easy to pop across the channel and go where we are wanted.

 

[eddie]

Look what happened in Weymouth a few years ago. Reported on Motorhome Facts by Mr Plod.
The local council, at the behest of a local councillor, went to the expense of making an “ aire “ with I believe water and drainage facility. Before it was officially opened the local campsite owners apparently complained and threatened to withhold their business rates if it was allowed to open.
Instead of standing up for what was a good idea it was automatically given up.
To the point I will not use any campsites within the Weymouth area and I know quite a few friends who were aware of what happened do’nt.

Is there any actual evidence to support this?

 

[David and Sally]

weymouth aire

Hope somebody can up date me please seem to remember that Weymouth was going to open an aire this year. has this happened and if so could somebody please point me in the right direction. Thank you:thumb:

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[peterc10]

It appears you didn't understand the USP then.

Why do you say that? USP = unique selling point, which I assume in this case means Canterbury Cathedral, unless you know of a better one. And the point I was making, which I think you may have missed, is that it is such a good USP that they get plenty of visitors without needing to attract motorhomers. And yet they do try to accommodate us as well. Other towns and cities that do not have such a good USP need to work much harder to get visitors in, and yet, in the case of motorhomers at least, fail to do so.

I didn't create my web site (or, indeed, start motorhoming) until I retired.
Not surprised, though, because I've seen all those excuses before. Far easier for most people to whinge than actually put some effort in.

Each to their own. I have chosen to spend my time in a different way to you, and have put my efforts into other things. But there is no need to be rude just because I have chosen to do something different to you.

The fact is that much of the rest of Western Europe is much better at attracting visitors into their villages, towns and cities than in England and Wales. And those places are better off for that. And I am still entitled to express that opinion, which is based on my own experiences, without being accused of "whinging"

 

[PeteH]

Unique Selling Point.
Looking at previous posts would have found that for you.
There is also a tool called Google Search for people who don't know what something means

Ah. But sir, you are so much better at it than I. Unique Selling Point?. I`ll have to remember that. Thank you!.

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[PeteH]

Agreed, I personally I think the cost of policing it would outweight any benefit.
But I accept others will have a different opinion.

Probably. Doesn't stop the "policing" of other parking though?. (and "speeding" one mph over a limit).

 

[gus-lopez]

and your solution is...

Yes, boycott them.refuse to use them.If everyone did it the prices would drop or the site would disappear .Either is acceptable.

 

[cornish boy]

Yes, boycott them.refuse to use them.If everyone did it the prices would drop or the site would disappear .Either is acceptable.

Love it, sod work, become unemployed, that will stick it up them....

 

[GJH]

Why do you say that? USP = unique selling point, which I assume in this case means Canterbury Cathedral, unless you know of a better one. And the point I was making, which I think you may have missed, is that it is such a good USP that they get plenty of visitors without needing to attract motorhomers. And yet they do try to accommodate us as well. Other towns and cities that do not have such a good USP need to work much harder to get visitors in, and yet, in the case of motorhomers at least, fail to do so.

Each to their own. I have chosen to spend my time in a different way to you, and have put my efforts into other things. But there is no need to be rude just because I have chosen to do something different to you.

The fact is that much of the rest of Western Europe is much better at attracting visitors into their villages, towns and cities than in England and Wales. And those places are better off for that. And I am still entitled to express that opinion, which is based on my own experiences, without being accused of "whinging"

It would help if you would bother to look at past discussions rather than make silly assumptions. Canterbury has the USP of being close to Dover and the Channel tunnel.

 

[peterc10]

It would help if you would bother to look at past discussions rather than make silly assumptions. Canterbury has the USP of being close to Dover and the Channel tunnel.

.
Graham, please try not to sound quite so patronising to those who dont agree with all of your opinions.

The attributes you refer to are shared by every town in East and Mid Kent, so can hardly be described as "unique". And many of those towns are even closer to Dover and the tunnel, including Dover itself! And yet they have nowhere near the visitor numbers to their centres than Canterbury does. In terms of visitors to the area the unique selling point of Canterbury is the Cathedral and its historic ancient surrounding area.

If you have ever visited Canterbury, especially in the summer, you will quickly realise that it is not reliant on the passing trade of people using the tunnel or ferries. To use the jargon of the travel industry, it is a destination in itself. And, given that the M20 is the usual and most used route from both Dover and the Channel Tunnel, a trip to Canterbury rather than say Ashford or Maidstone is actually off the route most foreign visitors take.

The Canterbury Aire is a useful stopover for Motorhomers going abroad. But that is not the USP that attracts the vast majority of the people who visit the City. And Canterbury does not need the Aire to attract those visitors.

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[Paddywack]

Depending what happens on the 12th December it could be the end for FLT in the UK.

Government consults on new police powers to criminalise unauthorised encampments

Proposals include powers to arrest and seize the property and vehicles of trespassers.

www.gov.uk

Now I know some on here will welcome this ethnic cleansing, but look carefully at the legislation as proposed, depending on interpretation it could have a major impact. Even if you have the landowners permission if you are "unauthorised" you can be arrested for a criminal offence.

 

[PeteH]

Depending what happens on the 12th December it could be the end for FLT in the UK.

Government consults on new police powers to criminalise unauthorised encampments

Proposals include powers to arrest and seize the property and vehicles of trespassers.

www.gov.uk

Now I know some on here will welcome this ethnic cleansing, but look carefully at the legislation as proposed, depending on interpretation it could have a major impact. Even if you have the landowners permission if you are "unauthorised" you can be arrested for a criminal offence.

I dont think too many Motor-homers will be affected?. A limit of 2 to constitute and encampment is IMV not onerous, and is unlikely to stop "us" having overnight stops, which is what most users would be happy with?. Unless of course you are one of those people that think parking and living on the sea front for 6 weeks is not "camping"?.

As for your "ethnic cleansing" In this particular instance, I would be in favour. It`s not the fact they are there, as much as the cost of removing their detritus comes out of the public purse into which You and I are contributors not they.

 

[Paddywack]

As for your "ethnic cleansing" In this particular instance, I would be in favour. It`s not the fact they are there, as much as the cost of removing their detritus comes out of the public purse into which You and I are contributors not they.

Something to think about:

"It’s true that some people have sometimes behaved appallingly, damaging places, leaving litter and abusing residents. But there are already plenty of laws to prosecute these crimes. The government’s proposal, criminalising the use of any place without planning permission for Roma and Travellers to stop, would extinguish the travelling life.

The consultation acknowledges that there is nowhere else for these communities to go, other than the council house waiting list, which means abandoning the key elements of their culture. During the Conservative purge in the late 1980s and early 1990s, two thirds of traditional, informal stopping sites for travellers, some of which had been in use for thousands of years, were sealed off. Then, in 1994, the Criminal Justice Act repealed the duty of local authorities to provide official sites for Roma and Travellers.

Over the past few weeks in Grimsby, Lincolnshire, local people have been debating the merits of the council’s proposal for an official transit site for travelling people. According to one councillor, there have been threats to stone, bottle and petrol bomb anyone who uses it, if planning permission is granted. For centuries, Roma and Travellers have been hounded from parish to parish, suffering prejudice and bigotry as extreme as any group faces. Now the government is stoking it.

Patel’s proposed laws belong to the most dangerous of all political categories: performative oppression. She is beating up a marginalised group in full public view, to show that she sides with the majority. I don’t know whether she really intends to introduce these laws, or whether this is empty electioneering. In either case, she is playing with fire. Already this month, three caravans in Somerset have allegedly been torched by suspected arsonists. Travelling peoples have been attacked like this for centuries, and sometimes murdered. In 2003, a 15-year-old Traveller child, Johnny Delaney, was in Ellesmere Port, Cheshire. One of them is reported to have explained to a passer-by, “He was only a Flipping Gypsy.”

I asked a traditional Traveller how Patel’s legislation would affect her. Briony (not her real name) told me she had ploughed her life savings into her motorhome, which she parks out of people’s way, beside roads within easy reach of her children’s school. She has good relations with local people, many of whom know her and see her as part of the community. But none of this will help.

If this proposal becomes law, “the police will have the power to kick my door in, take my home, arrest me and take the children into care. We won’t get them back because we won’t have a home. Because of my work, I can’t afford a criminal record. When I walk out of the police station, I will have no home, no assets, no children and no career.” It would also leave her without state protection. “Sometimes, we’ve had to call the police when we’re on the receiving end of hate crimes. This legislation would mean we had to go under the radar.” Understandably, she is terrified.

She has nowhere else to go. “There’s one transit site half an hour away, but you can stay there only for 28 days a year. So my only option is roadside. Roadside is our cultural heritage.” Stopping by the road has already been made extremely stressful and precarious by existing laws that allow the police to move people on. Patel’s proposal, turning trespass into a crime, would stamp it out altogether. It would end a migratory tradition that’s as old as humanity.

As Briony points out, this is collective punishment. “The majority of us are minding our own business. We’re providing our own housing, not relying on the government. But everything I do that’s positive is lost in people’s minds. Most people I meet have no idea I’m a Traveller. We’re invisible until we do something wrong. Then people notice we’re Travellers.”

A week before Patel launched her consultation, the Wiener Holocaust Library in London opened its exhibition on the Porajmos: the genocide of Roma and Sinti people carried out by the Nazis. It shows how ancient prejudices were mobilised to destroy entire peoples. I’m not saying that this is how the situation will unfold in this country, but the exhibition shows us the worst that can happen when the state sanctions the demonisation of an outgroup. First they came for the Travellers … "

George Monbiot

 

[PeteH]

Regardless of how George Monbiot puts it. It is a fact that the Traditional Roma, has largely been overtaken by the "itinerants". The traditional "Roma" we knew in the 50`s as kids, still lived the way their ancestors had. The Itinerant is an entirely different "species" who`s life style is actually counter to the old Roma, and who spend their existence taking the piss out of conventional society. Abusing the sites they do use, leaving their detritus for the L-A`s to remove at great cost. It cost thousands to clear a HULL park, they had to be careful because they where finding Drug abuse residue!. Trying to set up Illegal camps, and when not successful, cheekily challenge using the "race" law`s. None of which endears them to the rest on the conventional population who pay taxes and abide by the laws.

You and I in our motorhomes are not allowed to occupy any pitch for more that 28 days. Most of us (there are exceptions) accept that and move. We have a group locally who have been on a green plot, which they allegedly purchased, for over 6 months. in which time it had been hardened and portable facilities added, more recently fencing erected. I have done searches and can find NO planning application for Occupation nor change of use, in fact Nothing. The reply from the L-A is "we are aware, and are monitoring the situation".

Back in the 90`s, I did a self build, it took two years. We had to jump through multiple hoops and had umpteen restrictions put on it, it was inspected at regular intervals. And every time It cost!.

Do I personally resent the aforementioned FLT`s? You can bet I do!.

 

[GJH]

.
Graham, please try not to sound quite so patronising to those who dont agree with all of your opinions.

The attributes you refer to are shared by every town in East and Mid Kent, so can hardly be described as "unique". And many of those towns are even closer to Dover and the tunnel, including Dover itself! And yet they have nowhere near the visitor numbers to their centres than Canterbury does. In terms of visitors to the area the unique selling point of Canterbury is the Cathedral and its historic ancient surrounding area.

If you have ever visited Canterbury, especially in the summer, you will quickly realise that it is not reliant on the passing trade of people using the tunnel or ferries. To use the jargon of the travel industry, it is a destination in itself. And, given that the M20 is the usual and most used route from both Dover and the Channel Tunnel, a trip to Canterbury rather than say Ashford or Maidstone is actually off the route most foreign visitors take.

The Canterbury Aire is a useful stopover for Motorhomers going abroad. But that is not the USP that attracts the vast majority of the people who visit the City. And Canterbury does not need the Aire to attract those visitors.

Dear me. How many times does it take, repeating the point, to get through? As mentioned before this subject - and the USP - has been discussed in numerous threads previously. What is the problem with looking back at those threads and actually learning? The USP is not for attracting people to Canterbury itself but provides the justification for investing in the motorhome facilities in the first place. The proximity of Dover and the tunnel are the attractions for motorhome owners and that does not apply to the vast majority of local authorities in the UK.
If that is patronising it is because I am suck and tired of repeating the same thing to people who complain about lack of facilities but can not be bothered to do anything to change the situation, or even to establish the facts. Enough said, I'm out.

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