Batteries issue's

[ChrisL]

Hi all, I'd appreciate any comments on the following especially what may have caused it.
I fitted three 100ah lead carbon batteries nearly three years ago, I am full time and mostly on hookup however I do go off grid occasionally and at rallies. Recently I've been experiencing battery voltages crashing to 10.2 volts from12.8 volts with any load more then around 5 amps or higher whilst not on hookup. I only have a starter battery tester so I tested the batteries with an estimated 600 CCA results below. Any suggestions as to why this happened the SOC on the Victron shunt has never showed lower then 96%.

 

[StillGoing]

If you are full time and mostly on EHU, are your batteries just being charged too much?

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Lead Acid batteries will appear to take a charge, and whilst unused will show a reasonable voltage. But if at end of life so perhaps the lead plates are now thin or buckled, the charge they take up is limited and moreover if you try to pull a slightly large current they can't do it and voltage crashes.

You always assess voltage when batteries have rested say 30 minutes. It takes a while for chemistry to settle. When I had a single small lead acid, in good order, I could see voltage dropping from 12.6 to 12.3 even with moderate few minutes load, but it would come back up when switched off.

Your shunt doesn't know the battery is fubar. It measures current in, current out. As battery is accepting a small charge, on and giving small charge, shunt is not seeing use. Shunt does not know of degradation /aging losses in capacity.

 

[autorouter]

So, you tested lead-carbon gel leisure batteries by taking a current of 385A from them? The recommended maximum is about C5, ie for a 100Ah battery it's 100/5 = 20A, so that's 60A for 3 batteries. I'd ditch that starter battery tester, it's doing more harm than good.

Do all the three batteries show the same problem - dropping down to 10.8V - or is it just one of them with an internal fault dragging the other two down?

 

[ChrisL]

If you are full time and mostly on EHU, are your batteries just being charged too much?

Possibly, but the Victron charger goes to storage charge after float so it's maintained at around 13.6 volts.

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[ChrisL]

So, you tested lead-carbon gel leisure batteries by taking a current of 385A from them? The recommended maximum is about C5, ie for a 100Ah battery it's 100/5 = 20A, so that's 60A for 3 batteries. I'd ditch that starter battery tester, it's doing more harm than good.

Do all the three batteries show the same problem - dropping down to 10.8V - or is it just one of them with an internal fault dragging the other two down?

The 385A is the estimated CCA, their is no way the tester could draw 385 amps from the battery as the leads couldn't take that kind of current, you can see from the photos, each battery was tested separately.

 

[Tigger-Tim]

So, you tested lead-carbon gel leisure batteries by taking a current of 385A from them? The recommended maximum is about C5, ie for a 100Ah battery it's 100/5 = 20A, so that's 60A for 3 batteries. I'd ditch that starter battery tester, it's doing more harm than good.

Do all the three batteries show the same problem - dropping down to 10.8V - or is it just one of them with an internal fault dragging the other two down?

The 385A will be the estimated CCA.

The tester is showing a decent state of charge, but a poor state of health. I believe the tester estimated this by putting an AC current through the battery to measure it's internal impedance. I've no idea what the impedance would have been when the battery was new, but it rather sounds as if they are end of life.

I've found these little testers are reasonably good as long as the battery is well charged. If the battery is discharged, they seem to recommend replacement, when all they need is a spell on a decent charger. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

[Lenny HB]

Those CCA testers are meaningless on a leisure battery.
A few years ago I had a couple of AGM's fail they gave a result of 80% on a CCA tester but with a 5 amp load they were only good for 10ah.

I would seperate the batteries and give each one a low current discharge test. It may be one battery that has failed dragging the others down.

 

[ChrisL]

I've no idea what the impedance would have been when the battery was new, but it rather sounds as if they are end of life.

The data sheet says approximately 7.5 milli ohms.

I think I shall bite the bullet and get a fogstar drift 230ah, all my charging sources are lithium compatible.

My main query is why did this happen? The shunt reports the lowest discharge as 146ah thats less then 50% of a 300 amp bank, I only have a 500w pure sine inverter and it's only been used a couple of times to run the tv and sky box, the only thing I can think of is I had an incident where the site hookup post tripped and the charger in the EBL failed, so I'm wondering if that had something to do with it?

 

[Pausim]

Is your mains charger giving your lead carbon batteries the charge they need? Lead acid batteries have very different charging needs depending on their type and construction. Get it wrong and you can end up with badly sulphated batteries. Sulphation clogs up the plates and can leave a 100Ah battery with a much reduced capacity of say only 20Ah. The bit that isn’t sulphated can behave normally and charge up and hold a voltage but runs out of power very quickly. It sounds like this is what may have happened to your batteries.

I think Lithium would be a good move for you. Contrary to popular belief they are far less fussy about charging than lead acid. Under charging does them no harm.

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[headlight]

The data sheet says approximately 7.5 milli ohms.

I think I shall bite the bullet and get a fogstar drift 230ah, all my charging sources are lithium compatible.

My main query is why did this happen? The shunt reports the lowest discharge as 146ah thats less then 50% of a 300 amp bank, I only have a 500w pure sine inverter and it's only been used a couple of times to run the tv and sky box, the only thing I can think of is I had an incident where the site hookup post tripped and the charger in the EBL failed, so I'm wondering if that had something to do with it?

I can't answer why you have these problems but can say that I replaced 2 x 100AH lead acids with a Fogstar 230Ah LifePo4 at the beginning of the year and it is a game changer.
33kgs lighter than the lead acids, half the space, double the usable power and 200AH continuous drain.

 

[Lenny HB]

My main query is why did this happen?

Batteries probably not as good as they claim to be.

 

[ChrisL]

Is your mains charger giving your lead carbon batteries the charge they need? Lead acid batteries have very different charging needs depending on their type and construction. Get it wrong and you can end up with badly sulphated batteries. Sulphation clogs up the plates and can leave a 100Ah battery with a much reduced capacity of say only 20Ah. The bit that isn’t sulphated can behave normally and charge up and hold a voltage but runs out of power very quickly. It sounds like this is what may have happened to your batteries.

I think Lithium would be a good move for you. Contrary to popular belief they are far less fussy about charging than lead acid. Under charging does them no harm.

All charging sources are now victron and all were set up according to the data sheet for the batteries, the mains charger was fitted in July last year after the EBL charger failed.

 

[ChrisL]

Batteries probably not as good as they claim to be.

These are the batteries for anyone interested.

12V 110AH Expedition Plus Lead Carbon Gel Ultra Deep Cycle Battery (EXP12-110C) - Alpha Batteries

Ultra Deep Cycle Lead Carbon GEL Battery

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

 

[headlight]

These are the batteries for anyone interested.

12V 110AH Expedition Plus Lead Carbon Gel Ultra Deep Cycle Battery (EXP12-110C) - Alpha Batteries

Ultra Deep Cycle Lead Carbon GEL Battery

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

Those are the exact batteries I was going to get, 2 of them, but Fogstar had a black Friday sale just before Xmas that was to good to miss so I ended up buying the 230ah Fogstar instead.

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[autorouter]

Is your mains charger giving your lead carbon batteries the charge they need? Lead acid batteries have very different charging needs depending on their type and construction. Get it wrong and you can end up with badly sulphated batteries. Sulphation clogs up the plates and can leave a 100Ah battery with a much reduced capacity of say only 20Ah. The bit that isn’t sulphated can behave normally and charge up and hold a voltage but runs out of power very quickly. It sounds like this is what may have happened to your batteries.

The main reason to buy lead-carbon batteries is supposed to be that they are much less susceptible to sulfation. Apparently the carbon stops the sulfate crystals from growing to a size where they can't be re-converted back into lead/lead -oxide. The idea is that if the batteries can be put on a charger that keeps a constant trickle charge, they will gradually lose their sulfation and get back to normal working.

If these batteries failed due to sulfation then that's not good news. It would be worth finding out if the resting voltage of all three batteries separately are about right (12.0V to 12.7V) or whether one or more of them has a shorted cell that drops the resting voltage to about 10.5V.

I notice on the battery data sheet the internal resistance is 7.5mΩ, so nothing wrong with the batteries on that score. And that Autool battery tester really does take 340A or more from the battery. However the data sheet says the battery is good for up to 1000A for 5 sec, so maybe that's not a problem.

 

[ChrisL]

Those are the exact batteries I was going to get, 2 of them, but Fogstar had a black Friday sale just before Xmas that was to good to miss so I ended up buying the 230ah Fogstar instead.

To be fair to the batteries I spent two weeks off hookup last June when we had a lot of sunshine and the batteries were back to float by early afternoon, 250w of solar, the more I think about it, it must be something to do with the EBL charger failing.

 

[PhilandMena]

I too have Pure lead carbon AGM batteries. (leoch ldc12-105-g27-dt) I did a lot of reading and internet research before making my purchase and one thing all PLC AGM battery manufacturer's agreed upon was the charging regime needed to be strickly followed otherwise the batteries could be well and truly be 'goosed'. I then looked at charging details as one or two members had said on here that the Sargent on borad charger (PX-300) was not suitable for PLC AGM batteries. However, when Looking at spec sheets for PLC AGM batteries they were not all the same. The Leoch PLC AGM batteries referred to above has a charging profile. of 14.2-14.6V and 13.2-13.8V which is perfect for the Sargent charger. In my set up I use my onboard charger to maintain the cab battery only and I have 385Watts of solar power going through a MPPT controler adjusted with a MT 50 to meet the charging recommendations set by Leoch. This is working very well.
I would advise you check your charge set up against the manufactureres recomendations. Other than that, I do not have a clue. If the voltage is good is it possible your measuring device is wrong ? Has any of your onboard services failed due to a lack of battery power ? Hope you get it sorted, if they have been over charged, I'm sure they will need replacing.

 

[headlight]

To be fair to the batteries I spent two weeks off hookup last June when we had a lot of sunshine and the batteries were back to float by early afternoon, 250w of solar, the more I think about it, it must be something to do with the EBL charger failing.

That could be the reason.
3 of those batteries weigh 87kg, a 230AH Fogstar weighs 23kg, so a weight saving of 64kgs.

 

[ChrisL]

I too have Pure lead carbon AGM batteries. (leoch ldc12-105-g27-dt) I did a lot of reading and internet research before making my purchase and one thing all PLC AGM battery manufacturer's agreed upon was the charging regime needed to be strickly followed otherwise the batteries could be well and truly be 'goosed'. I then looked at charging details as one or two members had said on here that the Sargent on borad charger (PX-300) was not suitable for PLC AGM batteries. However, when Looking at spec sheets for PLC AGM batteries they were not all the same. The Leoch PLC AGM batteries referred to above has a charging profile. of 14.2-14.6V and 13.2-13.8V which is perfect for the Sargent charger. In my set up I use my onboard charger to maintain the cab battery only and I have 385Watts of solar power going through a MPPT controler adjusted with a MT 50 to meet the charging recommendations set by Leoch. This is working very well.
I would advise you check your charge set up against the manufactureres recomendations. Other than that, I do not have a clue. If the voltage is good is it possible your measuring device is wrong ? Has any of your onboard services failed due to a lack of battery power ? Hope you get it sorted, if they have been over charged, I'm sure they will need replacing.

Mine are Lead Carbon Gel not AGM, but as I have said, all charging devices were set to the specs as per the data sheet, the EBL charger when it was working was set to Gel and it's only since the charger failed that I have had an issue, however I didn't realise I had an issue until I arrived at a pub stop in Toddington last week with a 'fully charged battery' only to wake up in the morning to find the van had turned 12 volts off because of low voltage. So now I'm on a CL in Norfolk wondering if I have enough electricity to get through the Swaffham rally if push comes to shove I'll have to go to Halfords and buy a cheap lead acid, if there were any Fogstar's available I would have ordered it already.

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[Raul]

Any kind of lead acid battery that is sealed, agm, gel vrla etc. needs a proper temperature compensated charging profile. Usually 16mv per cel per degC. The 14.4v absorb is at 25degC and anything outside that, its adjusted by the charger. If you screw this requirement, expect a much reduced service life. Gel and agm start life with limited electrolyte, but enough in there if charged correctly, to last its full service life.
Many onboard chargers in motorhomes are simple power supplies, without any logic.
Victron chargers do have the temperature compensation built in, and set for 16mv.

I susspect in this case is a combination of ebl charger not meeting the requirements, and bmv monitor drift. The bmv needs to be set right at the start of battery life, then adjusted as the battery ages. One setting will not fit all conditions.
I'm also surprised that the carbon did not prevented the sulphating process, in a partial state of charge state, and maybe the bmv drift, give you more optimistic data than the reality.

 

[AdrianChen]

Mine are Lead Carbon Gel not AGM, but as I have said, all charging devices were set to the specs as per the data sheet, the EBL charger when it was working was set to Gel and it's only since the charger failed that I have had an issue, however I didn't realise I had an issue until I arrived at a pub stop in Toddington last week with a 'fully charged battery' only to wake up in the morning to find the van had turned 12 volts off because of low voltage. So now I'm on a CL in Norfolk wondering if I have enough electricity to get through the Swaffham rally if push comes to shove I'll have to go to Halfords and buy a cheap lead acid, if there were any Fogstar's available I would have ordered it already.

Did the data sheet specify the length of the absorption phase? Would be interested to know if they need a long absorption as do normal Gel type batteries?

 

[ChrisL]

Any kind of lead acid battery that is sealed, agm, gel vrla etc. needs a proper temperature compensated charging profile. Usually 16mv per cel per degC. The 14.4v absorb is at 25degC and anything outside that, its adjusted by the charger. If you screw this requirement, expect a much reduced service life. Gel and agm start life with limited electrolyte, but enough in there if charged correctly, to last its full service life.
Many onboard chargers in motorhomes are simple power supplies, without any logic.
Victron chargers do have the temperature compensation built in, and set for 16mv.

I susspect in this case is a combination of ebl charger not meeting the requirements, and bmv monitor drift. The bmv needs to be set right at the start of battery life, then adjusted as the battery ages. One setting will not fit all conditions.
I'm also surprised that the carbon did not prevented the sulphating process, in a partial state of charge state, and maybe the bmv drift, give you more optimistic data than the reality.

The shunt does have a temperature sensor attached to a positive battery terminal and it is set up as per the data sheet, and networked to the solar controller and the IP22 victron charger, however as you say the EBL charger didn't have access to that, the EBL provided the standard lead acid gel settings of 14.4 volts Absorbtion and 13.8 volt float with an 8 hour absorption period, maximum 18amp charge but I don't think I ever saw it any higher then 15amps. The shunt was fitted new at the same time as the batteries were installed, I was unaware of the possibility of shunt drift so will have to research that.

The data sheet did not specify the length of the absorption phase, I think Victron chargers default to 8 hours for gel presets.

I really appreciate everyone's comments, we had a power cut here so I haven't had a chance to charge batteries individually but I have a 7 stage smart charger so will stick a battery on that later and see what happens.

 

[Lenny HB]

I was unaware of the possibility of shunt drift so will have to research that.

Took me a couple weeks of changing setting to get accurate shunt readings with Gels.
Also need to adjust battery capacity aunually to allow for natural loss of capacity of 2.5% per year.

 

[Raul]

Did the data sheet specify the length of the absorption phase? Would be interested to know if they need a long absorption as do normal Gel type batteries?

It can only say in the data sheet a maximum time, the real absorb time its NOT a fixed timed event. Its dynamic, and moves with the two governing conditions: State of charge and rate of charge. This two will establish the absorb duration time, on any charging cycle start. Victron calculates this as follow:
- estimates SOC based on voltage at start of charging, allows for current flow to be measured, then it calculates the time necessary for absorb. Of course the absorb ultimately can be cut short it a max absorb time is been set lower than necessary. I usually set a max absorb allowable time with victron, and if its not very discharged, victron will calculate and cut the time to the required absorb. Usually 2-3hrs if battery was discharged 20-30%.
A fixed time on shallow cycle, will contribute to either: electrolyte loss or sulphation if charge rate is very low. Lead is most happy in the goldilocks zone, a rate of C/10.

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[AdrianChen]

It can only say in the data sheet a maximum time, the real absorb time its NOT a fixed timed event. Its dynamic, and moves with the two governing conditions: State of charge and rate of charge. This two will establish the absorb duration time, on any charging cycle start. Victron calculates this as follow:
- estimates SOC based on voltage at start of charging, allows for current flow to be measured, then it calculates the time necessary for absorb. Of course the absorb ultimately can be cut short it a max absorb time is been set lower than necessary. I usually set a max absorb allowable time with victron, and if its not very discharged, victron will calculate and cut the time to the required absorb. Usually 2-3hrs if battery was discharged 20-30%.
A fixed time on shallow cycle, will contribute to either: electrolyte loss or sulphation if charge rate is very low. Lead is most happy in the goldilocks zone, a rate of C/10.

Yes I agree - I was interested in whether the data sheet said anything at all - The original EBL charger used may not use an adaptive algorithm, so not having any experience of Carbon Gels which mention fast charge rates in the blurb which is not a feature of normal Gel batteries, I was curious....

 

[ChrisL]

Yes I agree - I was interested in whether the data sheet said anything at all - The original EBL charger used may not use an adaptive algorithm, so not having any experience of Carbon Gels which mention fast charge rates in the blurb which is not a feature of normal Gel batteries, I was curious....

The max charge current is 20ah per the data sheet.

 

[ChrisL]

For anyone interested I found a cheap battery capacity tester on ebay max 25 volts / 35watts you set the load, turn it on and it displays voltage and you can select ahs or watt hrs to be displayed, it has low voltage cut off, over power protection over voltage protection etc. The first photo is with it in stand by mode reporting voltage and the load I've set which is two amps, the second photo shows how much the voltage has dropped under the 2 amp load. So the battery is definitely knackered. The device is powered by the micro USB port at the top and the battery is connected to the block on the left.