B to B fitted by dealer, questionable method.

[grasscutter]

I had B to B Victron 12v 30 amp fitted by the dealer when I had my lithiums fitted.
All working fine and no problems.
However, I have had a problem that I posted on an earlier thread with my Votronic Duo Solar regulator playing up and not charging and making a clicking noise.
The upshot of this problem is that I have bitten the bullet and changed to a Victron MPPT 100 30 solar controller and also fitting a battery master to top up the vehicle battery.
Now comes the part that makes me raise a question.
Whilst fitting the new solar I notice that the dealer has fitted the B to B with new cabling from the vehicle battery and then the output goes straight to the battery.
However the original cabling to the EBL is still in place so It appears the original split charge is still operational.
If I start the engine with the lithiums discharged down to 68% I get a reading on the smart shunt of 49.5amps input. The solar at this time is only producing 1.3 amps due to cloud cover.
Having read so many posts on the forum regarding the correct set up my thought was that to be correct ( in the easiest way) would be for the input to the EBL be disconnected and isolated and replaced with the output from the B to B.
Appreciate any comments as to what happens if I leave alone or adjust to what I suggested above.
Ive added some photos of the various Bluetooth readings ie
Solar readout.
B to B not running.
B to B running.
Smart Shunt with B to B running.
Hope all the above makes sense.
Graham

 

[grasscutter]

Bump in the hope that Lenny HB or other wise sages have any input.

 

[DBK]

I know nothing about EBLs but with a B2B fitted you must disable any split charge function. If you don't the B2B can't function correctly.

 

[Lenny HB]

If the B2B is wired straight to the batteries the starter battery connection to the EBL should be disconnect otherwise the split charge relay which is inside the EBL will be in parallel with the B2B effectively shorting it out.

I'm surprised you are getting 50 amps with the EBL in circuit. Check to see if the 50 amp fuse by the starter battery has been pulled.

 

[grasscutter]

If the B2B is wired straight to the batteries the starter battery connection to the EBL should be disconnect otherwise the split charge relay which is inside the EBL will be in parallel with the B2B effectively shorting it out.

I'm surprised you are getting 50 amps with the EBL in circuit. Check to see if the 50 amp fuse by the starter battery has been pulled.

Thanks Lenny , I’ll check tomorrow.

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[gerry mcg]

Check whether the Starter battery IN cable to the EBL has been pulled out of the rear of the EBL - this will remove the alternator supply to the EBL and disable the split charge relay.
this is what i did when i wired my Votronic vcc12-50 B2B direct from the starter battery to the lithium leisure battery, avoiding and disabling EBL charging

 

[Hoovie]

I am not that familiar with the EBL units (hence a question I raised a couple of days ago) but I thought the Split Charge system in the EBL was not just a relay but a charging device? (the difference being a relay will just connect the input and output connections together, but a charger is uni-directional).
If the above IS correct, the current shown on the Victron Smartshunt would seem spot on.
EBL runs at 18A
Solar is around 1.4A
Victron 30A B2B at around 30A (actually runs at upto 33A)
Add them together and you get 50A into the battery.

 

[Lenny HB]

I thought the Split Charge system in the EBL was not just a relay but a charging device? (

It's just a split charge relay. The mains charger for the starter battery is done via the wire for the fridge relay input a seperate 20 amp fuse for that by the starter battery. The wire also goes to a changeover relay so the the fridge feed changes from the leisure battery to the starter battery when switched by the D+.

If that sounds confusing it's due to vin rouge intake tonight.

 

[autorouter]

Looking at the picture of the B2B working, its input is 13.6V and its output is 14.1V. That means the split charge relay inside the EBL is not operational, because that would make the two voltages practically equal.

I don't know where the extra amps is coming from. Not got the hookup still connected, have you?

 

[TinaLes]

Where's Gadget John when you need him?
LES

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[eddie]

Easy way to test is to disable the B2B and start the engine. Nothing should happen Charging wise, just the fridge.

 

[Lenny HB]

Looking at the picture of the B2B working, its input is 13.6V and its output is 14.1V. That means the split charge relay inside the EBL is not operational, because that would make the two voltages practically equal.

I don't know where the extra amps is coming from. Not got the hookup still connected, have you?

As I said installer may have removed the 50 amp fuse by the starter battery.

 

[Hoovie]

It's just a split charge relay. The mains charger for the starter battery is done via the wire for the fridge relay input a seperate 20 amp fuse for that by the starter battery. The wire also goes to a changeover relay so the the fridge feed changes from the leisure battery to the starter battery when switched by the D+.

If that sounds confusing it's due to vin rouge intake tonight.

thanks for the clarification. Makes perfect sense (I am much more familar with the British vans but learning a lot about the EBLs )

As a semi-aside (could be applicable to this install), I found when I was experimenting on making my own version of a CTEK 250S + Smartpass (Smartpass is basically a relay); If the Victron B2B INPUT is connected to the OUTPUT (which would happen if you had a split-charge relay in parallel and active) the B2B would run at full power, achieving little that was expected of it but generating a lot of heat. Not to be recommended!
(I think the only reason it is putting out the extra amps here is the EBL split is pretty small at 18A)

 

[autorouter]

As a semi-aside (could be applicable to this install), I found when I was experimenting on making my own version of a CTEK 250S + Smartpass (Smartpass is basically a relay); If the Victron B2B INPUT is connected to the OUTPUT (which would happen if you had a split-charge relay in parallel and active) the B2B would run at full power, achieving little that was expected of it but generating a lot of heat. Not to be recommended!
(I think the only reason it is putting out the extra amps here is the EBL split is pretty small at 18A)

Yes, this is the reason why a split charge relay needs to be disabled somehow. But in this case, the B2B input (13.6V) and output (14.1V) are different, so there is no split charge relay shorting the input and output.

The EBL split charge relay is quite substantial, usually a 70A one. I don't know where that extra 18A is coming from without knowing more about the setup. I could guess, maybe it has an extra mains LAS1218 charger, which has been switched off, but the internal 18A charger is still working. But the hookup would need to be connected for that to happen.

 

[AgeingAndrew]

Whilst fitting the new solar I notice that the dealer has fitted the B to B with new cabling from the vehicle battery and then the output goes straight to the battery.
However the original cabling to the [Broken Link Removed] is still in place so It appears the original split charge is still operational.

In my opinion, as you are reading 49+A in the shunt while the engine is running you must have more than the 30A B2B supplying current.

What current does the shunt record when the engine is off? It should fall to whatever the solar is providing.

You can disable the B2B using the Victron phone app, select ‘charger disabled’, then start the engine. If you are still recording more than the solar current contribution when the engine is running, and are not on EHU or any other charging source, then I’d say that the split charge is still enabled. To verify this you can remove the 50A fuse on the split charge input to the EBL (probably located on the starter battery +ve mounting),

If the installer has made such a fundamental mistake then it is unlikely that they have configured the B2B to work effectively, ie D+, voltage lockouts etc.

As a point of interest, what voltage does the solar controller show when the engine is running with and without the B2B charger enabled?. Does the solar controller battery voltage reading match the shunt and B2B readings?.

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[grasscutter]

Thankyou all for your input.
Following advice I disconnected the B to B and yes there was still a charge being detected.
I reconnected the B to B and then removed the 50 amp fuse feeding the EBL split charge and the smart shunt then shows circa 34amps which would be correct with the solar input as well this morning.
Everything else, steps fridge etc still working OK.
I now need to read up on state of charge for the smart shunt as disconnecting the B to B made it reset to 100% when I know it was around 62% before disconnecting. Always something!
What worries me is that this system was fitted by a main supplier of Ecotree batteries in their workshop.
eddievanbitz It shows not all installers are created equal.

 

[autorouter]

Following advice I disconnected the B to B and yes there was still a charge being detected.

Was this with the engine running? How much charge was being shown? How much charge was there with the engine stopped? Is the MH completely disconnected from mains hookup?

 

[Hoovie]

Thankyou all for your input.
Following advice I disconnected the B to B and yes there was still a charge being detected.
I reconnected the B to B and then removed the 50 amp fuse feeding the EBL split charge and the smart shunt then shows circa 34amps which would be correct with the solar input as well this morning.
Everything else, steps fridge etc still working OK.
I now need to read up on state of charge for the smart shunt as disconnecting the B to B made it reset to 100% when I know it was around 62% before disconnecting. Always something!
What worries me is that this system was fitted by a main supplier of Ecotree batteries in their workshop.
eddievanbitz It shows not all installers are created equal.

I always change the toggle on the Smartshunt and BMVs that resets the SOC to 100% on disconnection of the V+ signal.
It will then just read " - - " instead of "100%" but at least it will not give a false SOC!

 

[Hoovie]

Yes, this is the reason why a split charge relay needs to be disabled somehow. But in this case, the B2B input (13.6V) and output (14.1V) are different, so there is no split charge relay shorting the input and output.

Indeed. I should clarify maybe that I was building a test rig where the Relay OR the B2B would be active, but not both . Cost-effective alternative to getting a high-power B2B.
Actually simple to do and can be controlled by the relay on a Victron BMV.

 

[AgeingAndrew]

Looking at the picture of the B2B working, its input is 13.6V and its output is 14.1V. That means the split charge relay inside the EBL is not operational, because that would make the two voltages practically equal.

I don't know where the extra amps is coming from. Not got the hookup still connected, have you?

I think it will depend on the topology. The installer put new cables (presumably power and return) from the starter to the B2B thence to the LB so the split charge relay is not directly across the B2B. There could be quite a few metres of cable between EBL and B2B
There will be a small volt drop along those cables as well as a small volt drop in the original cable from starter battery - EBL - leisure battery.
There is no excuse for leaving the split charge relay in the circuit though.

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[grasscutter]

Was this with the engine running? How much charge was being shown? How much charge was there with the engine stopped? Is the MH completely disconnected from mains hookup?

No mains hook up. Engine running and receiving circa 18 amps from the battery to EBL . This ampage then disappears when pulling the 50 amp fuse at the end of the cable where it is attached to the vehicle Battery positive. Ie the original EBL split charge system.

 

[grasscutter]

As a further update I had a PM from another member asking if we had used the same workshop as he is having exactly the same problem on a system with a Sargent. The answer was we had.
I will be open and say my system was fitted by Oak Tree Motorhomes.

 

[AgeingAndrew]

No mains hook up. Engine running and receiving circa 18 amps from the battery to EBL . This ampage then disappears when pulling the 50 amp fuse at the end of the cable where it is attached to the vehicle Battery positive. Ie the original EBL split charge system.

I guess the conclusion is that the fitter left the split charge enabled when installing the B2B. He clearly did not understand the implications of fitting the B2B on the existing system.
Unbelievable!

 

[Otter Spotter]

Are you going to speak to Oaktree Motorhomes and tell them what’s happening ?

 

[TCG]

As a further update I had a PM from another member asking if we had used the same workshop as he is having exactly the same problem on a system with a Sargent. The answer was we had.
I will be open and say my system was fitted by Oak Tree Motorhomes.

hi
i am that other member.
Two weeks ago i had a victron multi plus fitted by Vanbitz when i collected the van i was told by Ash, that the company that installed my lithium and victron kit had not disabled my split charge relay in the sergeant unit.
how i wish i had spent my 2.5k with eddievanbitz rather than Oaktree at least i would have known it would have been a job well done. Following the conversation with Ash regarding the split charge relay i contacted Oak tree and to be honest they really did not want to know, I now have to find someone who will disconnect this relay, happy to pay, but it will be difficult finding a company to carry out this work as there is nothing in it for them.
Moral of the story - go by recommendation Vanbitz fitted my alarm and Victron Multi plus, why oh why did i spend 2.5k on a set up that has not be fitted correctly

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[autorouter]

I think it will depend on the topology. The installer put new cables (presumably power and return) from the starter to the B2B thence to the LB so the split charge relay is not directly across the B2B. There could be quite a few metres of cable between EBL and B2B
There will be a small volt drop along those cables as well as a small volt drop in the original cable from starter battery - EBL - leisure battery.
There is no excuse for leaving the split charge relay in the circuit though.

I think you are right about that. I didn't imagine there could be that high voltage drop (0.5V) across a short length of thick cable. But as you say, it's quite a long length, and some of it is not very thick.