Angles Mort again

This whole thing has got me perplexed. What difference does the weight of the vehicle make? By its definition, the "Angle Mort" is created by the length of the vehicle and the sharpness of the corner. Surely the ruling should be vehicles over a certain length, or articulated, are obliged to display them? I stand to be corrected.
 
I can’t answer your question regarding the law, but personally, 3500 plus towing 500, I’d put them on.
I’ve bought two magnet backs and one sticker. The sticker will go on a sheet of aluminium to attach to the bike rack at the rear.
I’ve got a tag axle at 5200 so can’t exactly get away with someone glancing and thinking I’m under 3500.
Like others have said, they’re a farce because they’re not going to stop any cyclist from getting injured. You look at most UK trucks and buses who have similar signs on them and it doesn’t stop the idiot from squeezing up the inside ready to be crushed on their bike.
Governments need to educate some cyclists. I’d call it common sense but then there’s a distinct lack of it these days.
 
IMO the difference is in the attitude to law, the French attitude is to decide whether they agree with it before probably doing nothing, the English/ German etc is to try and gold plate it in some way.

Funny thing is that when in France, if you see a camping car with them on 99% of the time its not French.
 
Got back last week. Was on a site with dozens of Dutch, German and French motorhomes. Saw three motorhomes with Angles Mort stickers, but only on vehicles that were obviously over 3500kg, ie two tag axles, or 8m; one Brit, one Dutch and one French.

Also, while on the road, I saw a couple of buses towing a small trailer. One was a tag and had the stickers, but the others were smaller and did not. Which brings me back to my original question. Does having a trailer affect whether you should wear the silly stickers under French law?

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DDJC said:
Got back last week. Was on a site with dozens of Dutch, German and French motorhomes. Saw three motorhomes with Angles Mort stickers, but only on vehicles that were obviously over 3500kg, ie two tag axles, or 8m; one Brit, one Dutch and one French.

Also, while on the road, I saw a couple of buses towing a small trailer. One was a tag and had the stickers, but the others were smaller and did not. Which brings me back to my original question. Does having a trailer affect whether you should wear the silly stickers under French law?
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Email the French Government and ask them and then you’ve got it straight from the horses mouth rather than differing opinion.
It’s such a tough question to answer because if you was to go with someone’s opinion and then end up getting pulled over, you’d be kicking yourself.

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If you do some googling, there may be a quote from the department that has introduced these stickers. I think I recall seeing it on an article featured by a truck/freight article.
You may be able to then quote that department in the above email and it may get to where it needs to a bit quicker.
 
The text of the legislation is here (scroll right down to section 323 32 1)


The definition of the vehicles affected refers to the 'total authorised laden weight' exceeding 3.5 tonnes. So I guess without the trailer you're fine and with it, probably not. Theoretically you could perhaps put the rear stickers on the back of the trailer, given they're only required when it's hitched up.
 
GAVLAD said:
Email the French Government and ask them and then you’ve got it straight from the horses mouth rather than differing opinion.
It’s such a tough question to answer because if you was to go with someone’s opinion and then end up getting pulled over, you’d be kicking yourself.

Try visiting
www.diplomatie.gouv.fr

Email us

Our Webmaster will endeavour comments and suggestions addressed via this contact form and take them into account. However, they cannot deal with (…)
www.diplomatie.gouv.fr www.diplomatie.gouv.fr

If you do some googling, there may be a quote from the department that has introduced these stickers. I think I recall seeing it on an article featured by a truck/freight article.
You may be able to then quote that department in the above email and it may get to where it needs to a bit quicker.
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Good call.

Have sent the following to the Ministry for Ecological Transition and Territorial Cohesion (!!)


Cher Monsieur / Madame
En tant que propriétaire de camping-car et visiteur régulier en France, j'essaie d'avoir des éclaircissements sur l'article L313-1 et l'article R 313-32-1. Ce sont les nouvelles lois qui imposent la pose des vignettes « Angles Morts ».

Les articles font référence aux « véhicules de plus de 3,5 tonnes ». Je voudrais préciser si ce poids de 3,5 tonnes fait référence au poids total autorisé en charge ou est-ce que le poids de toute remorque est ajouté au poids total autorisé en charge ?



My French is not that good and so the finer points were courtesy of google Translate. If there is anyone fluent enough to confirm that I haven't in fact told the Minster that her daughter is a purple canal barge. I would appreciate it

::bigsmile:
 
BnBJwf said:
This whole thing has got me perplexed. What difference does the weight of the vehicle make? By its definition, the "Angle Mort" is created by the length of the vehicle and the sharpness of the corner. Surely the ruling should be vehicles over a certain length, or articulated, are obliged to display them? I stand to be corrected.
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EXACTLY. My motorhome was 3500KG when purchased so didn't need one. It is now 4250KG so apparently does need one and yet nothing has changed in relation to the purpose of the sticker. Pointless and I have never bothered to put them on. I know there are lots of 'ite the law' people on here but morally I don't have a problem with breaking silly laws and practically I can't see the police ever taking an interest.
 
VXman said:
and practically I can't see the police ever taking an interest.
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Much like the cyclists then!

On a serious note, the stickers have been in use for about 3 years now, I wonder if there any figures relating to collisions involving Cyclists and heavy vehicles available?

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BnBJwf said:
This whole thing has got me perplexed. What difference does the weight of the vehicle make? By its definition, the "Angle Mort" is created by the length of the vehicle and the sharpness of the corner. Surely the ruling should be vehicles over a certain length, or articulated, are obliged to display them? I stand to be corrected.
Click to expand...

You'd think so, but no. Length is not a factor.

Looking at the actual French law, it looks as if a 3 tonne, 6m long cargo van, towing a 8.5m 650 Fendt caravan, doesn't need angles mort stickers. However a 6m motorhome plated up to 3600kg, definitely does.

The weight issue is less clear. I am waiting confirmation from the relevant French ministry, in which I am asking to clarify the issue of whether trailer weight is included in the 3500kg. Is the weight the Maximum Permitted Mass of the towing vehicle; or is it the Gross Train Weight. Pretty sure it is the former, but I want a letter from the French govt to show to that officious Gendarme.
 
jongood said:
Much like the cyclists then!

On a serious note, the stickers have been in use for about 3 years now, I wonder if there any figures relating to collisions involving Cyclists and heavy vehicles available?
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I think if you are not aware enough to be cautious around a long vehicle you are unlikely to spend time reading a sign on the side of said vehicle.:rolleyes:
 
DDJC said:
You'd think so, but no. Length is not a factor.

Looking at the actual French law, it looks as if a 3 tonne, 6m long cargo van, towing a 8.5m 650 Fendt caravan, doesn't need angles mort stickers. However a 6m motorhome plated up to 3600kg, definitely does.

The weight issue is less clear. I am waiting confirmation from the relevant French ministry, in which I am asking to clarify the issue of whether trailer weight is included in the 3500kg. Is the weight the Maximum Permitted Mass of the towing vehicle; or is it the Gross Train Weight. Pretty sure it is the former, but I want a letter from the French govt to show to that officious Gendarme.
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If you get to the point where a gendarme wants to go into that level of hassle you will probably (sadly) have bigger problems than whether you have the correct stickers.
 
jongood said:
If you get to the point where a gendarme wants to go into that level of hassle you will probably (sadly) have bigger problems than whether you have the correct stickers.
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Oh god yes! I have 'UK' stickers, max speed is about 95kmh, I am confident that the tyres are good and the back is jacked up on the semi air to make us look light.

But currently, moho is plated at 3500kg so no stickers needed.
 
DDJC said:
You'd think so, but no. Length is not a factor.

Looking at the actual French law, it looks as if a 3 tonne, 6m long cargo van, towing a 8.5m 650 Fendt caravan, doesn't need angles mort stickers. However a 6m motorhome plated up to 3600kg, definitely does.

The weight issue is less clear. I am waiting confirmation from the relevant French ministry, in which I am asking to clarify the issue of whether trailer weight is included in the 3500kg. Is the weight the Maximum Permitted Mass of the towing vehicle; or is it the Gross Train Weight. Pretty sure it is the former, but I want a letter from the French govt to show to that officious Gendarme.
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Got the definitive word back from the French Government. Very efficient.

Monsieur bonjour,

Ce poids de 3,5t est à considérer par véhicule et pas pour l'ensemble de véhicules. Si le véhicule à moteur à un PTAC de moins de 3,5t il n'aura pas d'obligation de signalisation angles morts, même si le PTAC de l'ensemble Véhicule tracteur + remorque dépasse 3,5t.

Cordialement.

La sous-direction de la sécurité et des émissions des véhicules.


Which says:

Hello sir,
This weight of 3.5t is to be considered per vehicle and not for the combination of vehicles. If the motor vehicle has a GVW of less than 3.5t, there will be no obligation to indicate blind spots, even if the GVW of the towing vehicle + trailer combination exceeds 3.5t.

Cordially.

The Vehicle Safety and Emissions Sub-Directorate.

So, somewhat bizarrely, you could have a setup that is more than 12 m long, articulated in the middle, and as long as the towing vehicle's Gross Vehicle Weight is less than 3500kg, you don't have to wear stickers. But if you up-plate your 5.9m Elldis Autoquest to 3600kg, you need stickers.

Someone hasn't thought it through!

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DDJC said:
Got the definitive word back from the French Government. Very efficient.

Monsieur bonjour,

Ce poids de 3,5t est à considérer par véhicule et pas pour l'ensemble de véhicules. Si le véhicule à moteur à un PTAC de moins de 3,5t il n'aura pas d'obligation de signalisation angles morts, même si le PTAC de l'ensemble Véhicule tracteur + remorque dépasse 3,5t.

Cordialement.

La sous-direction de la sécurité et des émissions des véhicules.


Which says:

Hello sir,
This weight of 3.5t is to be considered per vehicle and not for the combination of vehicles. If the motor vehicle has a GVW of less than 3.5t, there will be no obligation to indicate blind spots, even if the GVW of the towing vehicle + trailer combination exceeds 3.5t.

Cordially.

The Vehicle Safety and Emissions Sub-Directorate.

So, somewhat bizarrely, you could have a setup that is more than 12 m long, articulated in the middle, and as long as the towing vehicle's Gross Vehicle Weight is less than 3500kg, you don't have to wear stickers. But if you up-plate your 5.9m Elldis Autoquest to 3600kg, you need stickers.

Someone hasn't thought it through!
Click to expand...
They make cracking cheese and wine though. Just cannot make logical vehicle legislation. 👍
 
DDJC said:
Got the definitive word back from the French Government. Very efficient.

Monsieur bonjour,

Ce poids de 3,5t est à considérer par véhicule et pas pour l'ensemble de véhicules. Si le véhicule à moteur à un PTAC de moins de 3,5t il n'aura pas d'obligation de signalisation angles morts, même si le PTAC de l'ensemble Véhicule tracteur + remorque dépasse 3,5t.

Cordialement.

La sous-direction de la sécurité et des émissions des véhicules.


Which says:

Hello sir,
This weight of 3.5t is to be considered per vehicle and not for the combination of vehicles. If the motor vehicle has a GVW of less than 3.5t, there will be no obligation to indicate blind spots, even if the GVW of the towing vehicle + trailer combination exceeds 3.5t.

Cordially.

The Vehicle Safety and Emissions Sub-Directorate.

So, somewhat bizarrely, you could have a setup that is more than 12 m long, articulated in the middle, and as long as the towing vehicle's Gross Vehicle Weight is less than 3500kg, you don't have to wear stickers. But if you up-plate your 5.9m Elldis Autoquest to 3600kg, you need stickers.

Someone hasn't thought it through!
Click to expand...
Would you prefer it if many cars that occasionally towed a medium trailer had to fit the stickers? This would be required if it was a system based on Gross Train Weight rather then Gross Vehicle Weight.
 
dunnah01 said:
Would you prefer it if many cars that occasionally towed a medium trailer had to fit the stickers? This would be required if it was a system based on Gross Train Weight rather then Gross Vehicle Weight.
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I would have thought that a vehicle with trailer(unless close-coupled) would drag in on a corner more than a rigid vehicle.

I am surprised that they did not draft the law so that when towing at train weight .3.5t the Angles Morts have to be fitted, but not fitted if not towing and vehicle is under 3.5t.
 
When we were in Croatia there was a German family that had an Adria caravan that must have been as long if not longer than my 8.7m van, add on the BMW 4x4 he had that was probably another 5m+ and it’s a fair old rig.
Weight wise they had every item you could think scattered around the van so would guess he was overweight.
 
Coastal Cruiser. said:
When we were in Croatia there was a German family that had an Adria caravan that must have been as long if not longer than my 8.7m van, add on the BMW 4x4 he had that was probably another 5m+ and it’s a fair old rig.
Weight wise they had every item you could think scattered around the van so would guess he was overweight.
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Some of the X5s can tow over 3500kg so probably fine for weight

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dunnah01 said:
Some of the X5s can tow over 3500kg so probably fine for weight
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Probably not with the amount of stuff they had outside, that had to go somewhere and I should think the caravan would be a fair weight before they started any loading up!
Looks like nearly 11m long and 2.8t empty😳😳
D502AED2-A0E9-4417-B888-F92283F3BFA2.png
 
Coastal Cruiser. said:
Probably not with the amount of stuff they had outside, that had to go somewhere and I should think the caravan would be a fair weight before they started any loading up!
Looks like nearly 11m long and 2.8t empty😳😳
View attachment 628420
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As far as I know 7m is the maximum caravan /trailer length whentowing with a vehicle plated at up to 3,5T gvw.
If trailer or caravan is longer than 7m then the towing vehicle has to have a gvw in excess of 3,5T
 
gus-lopez said:
As far as I know 7m is the maximum caravan /trailer length whentowing with a vehicle plated at up to 3,5T gvw.
If trailer or caravan is longer than 7m then the towing vehicle has to have a gvw in excess of 3,5T
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Must be different in Germany as I also saw a big Tabbart caravan being towed on the site by a 4x4 and that was slightly shorter than the Adria.
I don’t think there are any cars that are plated to tow more than 3.5t, the RR are 3.5t and not sure about the BMW but would have thought the same?
 
Do you think it’s a ploy to be able to see which vans don’t observe the 3.5t village road signs so the lazy cops can spot them whilst enjoying their coissant?
 
I don’t get this debate that keeps coming up …if your over 3.5 t stick them on …. what’s the problem.
They are not going to damage your paintwork and you can take them off when you back in the UK …but if you accidentally kill a cyclist in France and your missing the stickers then you are well and truly stuffed .

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Got my stickers in the boot/garage/storage area.
AND, in the last 4 day's in France i have seen 3 MHs with toads (A frames), 2 French and 1 German.
 
bobnick said:
Got my stickers in the boot/garage/storage area.
AND, in the last 4 day's in France i have seen 3 MHs with toads (A frames), 2 French and 1 German.
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Good luck 👍 I just don’t see what you gain by pointlessly flouting a countries laws ..must be me
 
dunnah01 said:
Would you prefer it if many cars that occasionally towed a medium trailer had to fit the stickers? This would be required if it was a system based on Gross Train Weight rather then Gross Vehicle Weight.
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I don't care, my moho is 3500. I think that the stickers are daft. It just seems silly to me that a 3500kg moho and trailer of 12m doesn't but a 7m 3650kg moho does. And more relevant, if a cyclist is near enough to read the stickers then they are already in danger.

If I up-plate the bus, I'll wear them, but not till then. You have got to admit, they are fugly.
 
DDJC said:
You have got to admit, they are fugly.
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I don't even notice them after a while to tell the truth. A bit like the cyclists!

It would be interesting to see the French stats to see if they have made a difference - answers on a post card . . .

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