Advice and guidance from the hive mind please (Lead acid to Lithium - again……..)

R32Paul

R32Paul

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Jun 9, 2016
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Unfortunately work got in the way of looking after the vans batteries when in storage. Normally I bring the van home every 3-4 weeks to charge, however from early September to Post Christmas a combination of travel for work and sickness prevented me getting to the van. So unspurisingly both the starter and hab batteries were flat as you know what……

I have replaced the starter battery (like yoga with weights) and have now moved onto the hab batteries….. and I’m investigating a swap to Lithium. Our van is a 2014 Burstner Elegance, currently fitted with 2 habitation batteries (lead acid Varna 90Ah batteries) and 140w of solar (I think).

I have been looking at the Fogstar Drify, with a single 230Ah or 280Ah battery replacing the two existing.

Our current system includes a Scahudt 220-4 with an independent Alden SPS220 (with a LiFePo setting). We don’t currently have an inverter, but I am considering one.

I’m trying to understand what the simplest / cost effective modifications I need to make to the current system to ensure I get the most out of a LiFePo battery. I have read so many conflicting opinions on line about the current split charging system being sufficient or do I need a B2B and / or a different mains charger?

I would prefer if possible to buy the battery and gradually upgrade the rest of the system.

Any advice and guidance great-fully received.
 
I have almost exactly the same. 2014 Elegance with 2x varta 90amp leads. Solar controller is the Votronic that also has a lithium profile.
A few week ago I bought 2 x Ecoworthy 100amp lithiums off a guy who upgraded to a larger home battery system.
From info off here and direct from Schaudt it seems the EBL is ok left on Lead gel setting, swop solar to the lithium battery. Like you I want to do it in easy stages. So plan to just swop the batteries with the charging as above.
Long term I will go with a B2B and a battery monitor as the Ecoworthy does not have one built in.

Fogstar would have been my choice but these Ecoworthy came up at the right price 👍
 
R32Paul said:
I would prefer if possible to buy the battery and gradually upgrade the rest of the system.
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Depends how much time you want to spend off grid.

If, like us, you are quite happy to use just EHU for a while then you can very easily do what we did:-
  1. Switch off (or otherwise disable your split charge relay)
  2. Change the battery type setting on the Schaudt to GEL
  3. Change the battery type setting on the Solar to Lithium
  4. Replace the lead-acid with lithium and do the rest later.
 
tonka said:
I have almost exactly the same. 2014 Elegance with 2x varta 90amp leads. Solar controller is the Votronic that also has a lithium profile.
A few week ago I bought 2 x Ecoworthy 100amp lithiums off a guy who upgraded to a larger home battery system.
From info off here and direct from Schaudt it seems the EBL is ok left on Lead gel setting, swop solar to the lithium battery. Like you I want to do it in easy stages. So plan to just swop the batteries with the charging as above.
Long term I will go with a B2B and a battery monitor as the Ecoworthy does not have one built in.

Fogstar would have been my choice but these Ecoworthy came up at the right price 👍
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Tonga,

I think from your profile we have the same van? I800G? From research there appears to be a schaudt direct plug in B2B charger that you can plug into the EB as well, but the cable runs for the EB B2B extension look like a nightmare under the floor.

 
For the EBL 220 it is very easy to disable the split charge relay when you want to fit a B2B. The split charge relay is built into the EBL220. The supply to it comes from the starter battery, through a 60A fuse next to the starter battery. If you remove that 60A fuse, the split charge relay will be isolated. It will still click on and off when the engine starts and stops, but it won't do anything.

The other functions like fridge power on 12V while driving, and starter battery trickle-charging while plugged into a hookup, all go via a second wire through a 20A fuse to the starter battery, so will not be affected by pulling the 60A fuse.

The EBL220 has a battery type selection switch (Batterie Wahl) and you can choose flooded lead-acid (Blei-Saure) or Gel (Blei-Gel). I think of those two it's best to choose flooded lead-acid, not Gel. I know some people recommend Gel, but I think that's because most EBLs have a choice of AGM and Gel, and the Gel setting is better than AGM. For this EBL, the lead-acid setting is better because it doesn't have the extended timed absorption stage at the higher voltage level.

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You won't regret going Lithium....but...treat it to what it deserves....being charged properly and in return it will serve you well....we are one year in from converting....a total game changing way we use our motorhome..
 
What solar controller does the hive mind recommend? With a view to future expansion?

If a Victron Shunt necessary if the lithium battery has a bms?
 
I use Victron...

I have Smart shunt that delivers a totally different state of charge that my BMS ...which one is correct...I really don't know....
 
jumar said:
I use Victron...

I have Smart shunt that delivers a totally different state of charge that my BMS ...which one is correct...I really don't know....
Click to expand...

The victron shunt requires a number of parameters to be defined for the various battery types. Have these parameters been set up/adjusted specifically for LiFePO4? The BMS is designed for LiFePO4 and I‘d lay odds on the issue being a Victron shunt settings one.

Ian
 
jumar said:
I use Victron...

I have Smart shunt that delivers a totally different state of charge that my BMS ...which one is correct...I really don't know....
Click to expand...
As bigtwin says. For example, the charging process of a lead-acid battery is about 70% efficient. That means it needs about 14Ah of charge input to increase the state of charge by 10Ah. Lithium battery charging is much more efficient, so it only needs about 10.5Ah to 11Ah to increase the state of charge by 10Ah. The Victron shunt knows this, and takes it into account, assuming it's set up for the right battery type. And that's just one of the settings, there are others.

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autorouter said:
As bigtwin says. For example, the charging process of a lead-acid battery is about 70% efficient. That means it needs about 14Ah of charge input to increase the state of charge by 10Ah. Lithium battery charging is much more efficient, so it only needs about 10.5Ah to 11Ah to increase the state of charge by 10Ah. The Victron shunt knows this, and takes it into account, assuming it's set up for the right battery type. And that's just one of the settings, there are others.
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I never knew that, until now !
 
EuroTrotters said:
I never knew that, until now !
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Many years ago, this was discovered by a gent by the name Peukert, and since then it was called Peukert effect, and needs a Peukert exponent appropriate value entered in the shunt settings, to measure the current correctly.
Victron shunt comes with standard lifepo4 setting a peukert value of 1.05, but I use 1.02 as lifepo4 are very efficient, and the 1.05 it is to much giving wrong reading.
 
Raul said:
Many years ago, this was discovered by a gent by the name Peukert, and since then it was called Peukert effect, and needs a Peukert exponent appropriate value entered in the shunt settings, to measure the current correctly.
Victron shunt comes with standard lifepo4 setting a peukert value of 1.05, but I use 1.02 as lifepo4 are very efficient, and the 1.05 it is to much giving wrong reading.
Click to expand...
Well a big thank you for that... I've made the suggested change to settings (Peukert) and it's brought my BMS and Shunt reading much closer..,👍😃🇪🇦
 
jumar said:
I've made the suggested change to settings (Peukert) and it's brought my BMS and Shunt reading much closer.
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Actually, the charge efficiency setting that I mentioned is not the same as the Peukert factor, so both of them need to be set correctly. For a lithium battery the charge efficiency is very high, about 99%, compared to lead-acid types which are about 70% to 80%.

The Peukert factor for lithium is as Raul says, about 1.02 to 1.05. For a perfect battery it would be exactly 1, and for lead-acid types it's about 1.25.
 
autorouter said:
Actually, the charge efficiency setting that I mentioned is not the same as the Peukert factor, so both of them need to be set correctly. For a lithium battery the charge efficiency is very high, about 99%, compared to lead-acid types which are about 70% to 80%.

The Peukert factor for lithium is as Raul says, about 1.02 to 1.05. For a perfect battery it would be exactly 1, and for lead-acid types it's about 1.25.
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You probably know, that Peukert its not linear and static, its dynamic in line with the charge/discharge rate. The 1.05 may be spot on for a 0.5C rate but who hammers their batteries so hard? A 0.1C its a rate most use with occasional 0.2C so the coefficient of 1.02 it is more suitable for our use.
The charge efficiency I set at 98% due to variable power inputs, and variable temperatures. In ideal lab conditions I agree that efficiency its close to 99%.

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R32Paul said:
What solar controller does the hive mind recommend? With a view to future expansion?

If a Victron Shunt necessary if the lithium battery has a bms?
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I spread my bets.

I have always had a Victron BMV700 with shunt and 250W of solar panels which the dealer fitted, so could get good info when running the original fitted AGM batteries in my 2015 Hymer B678. When first installing lithiums in 2022 (2 x 120AH from KS) I put in a Votronic 30A B2B and replaced the Schaudt solar regulator with a Votronic 350W MPPT Solar regulator. Because my EBL did not have a Lithium profile I just disconnected it so it did not charge the leisure batteries, but still trickle charged the cab battery.

A year later I decided to upgrade some more with another 200W of solar panels with a Victron MPPT charger. I also bought a Victron IP22 20A mains charger which has a lithium profile. Also fitted a Renogy 2000W pure sine wave inverter and a small microwave oven.

All seem to be working OK so far.
 
Well. Today was the day. A nice man from UPS delivered a Fogstar 280ah battery, victron 100/20 solar controller and a smart shunt. Supplied by Offgrid Power Solutions (complete with the funster discount). B2B charger to follow next month.

Install starts tomorrow.



IMG_0752.jpeg
 
R32Paul said:
Well. Today was the day. A nice man from UPS delivered a Fogstar 280ah battery, victron 100/20 solar controller and a smart shunt. Supplied by Offgrid Power Solutions (complete with the funster discount). B2B charger to follow next month.

Install starts tomorrow.



View attachment 858863
Click to expand...
How much is one of them now?
 
So all done apart from cable tidy up to tomorrow and battery retention (ideas great-fully received). I can now see what solar is doing (8W on a cloudy day) and how much the system is drawing when I thought it was off 3W. For flushed with success, I have a go at 12v socket in the gas locker for external water pump tomorrow.

IMG_0747.jpeg
IMG_0759.jpeg

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I’m no expert but read on here that live wires through a gas locker is a bit of a no no, or maybe that was 240?. Hope someone that knows can correct me. Nice set up by the way.
 
Cush said:
I’m no expert but read on here that live wires through a gas locker is a bit of a no no, or maybe that was 240?. Hope someone that knows can correct me. Nice set up by the way.
Click to expand...

On the face of it, it doesn’t seem to be a terribly good idea. 💥

Ian
 
You can run a 12v cable through the gas but mustn't fit a socket inside it.

Your battery cables look to be on the small side and I don't see a fuse in the positive side.
 
Fuse stack on the +ve side (obscured in the pictures). The cables are the original MH ones. I’m planning on changing the ones to/from the shunt and the solar controller.

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