A Frame advice

Yvie R

Yvie R

Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Posts
9
Likes collected
11
Funster No
54,262
Hi all, hope you are all enjoying a little new found freedom here and there, we certainly are.

We currently have a not so young Smart car , towed on an Aframe. The problem is that the current TowingAframes unit which came with the car, is so heavy for me to use. Whilst I understand that it has to be pretty substantial to tow a vehicle safely, I was just wondering if any of you have come across a not so heavy unit. We are looking to change the car with frame so this would be a good opportunity to explore alternatives.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.

Yvie
 
the towbars 2 towcars frame is 19kg so light, because the braking is done electrically
 
The heaviest part is usually the sliding hitch brake mechanism.
Electronic braked frames don't need this so will be considerably lighter, but more expensive.
The electronic system is far more superior with progressive braking.... The harder you brake the car brakes with the same force.
With a sliding hitch all the force is applied at once then as the car slows the pressure on the hitch deminishes so the brake effort deminishes too.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
LNB - towmaster 2 - excellent company. a frame only 12kg and comes with electronic braking - not cheap circa 3.5k - but you get what you pay for :LOL:

Towmaster 2 A Frame Towing & A Frame Towing for Sale in Bristol

Towmaster 2 is designed for strength and ease of use. A Frame Towing is the easiest way to tow a car behind your motorhome. Buy a Towmaster from us today!
www.lnbleisure.co.uk www.lnbleisure.co.uk
 
I have had most a frames avoid Towtal and Armitage, towing aframes Chesterfield nicely made light weight and value for money if you can get past the woman on the phone, next towbar 2 towcars good service and works well quite light, then towmaster2 easy to use being telescopic but pricey, I have the later on our car but it came as a package. 🙂
 
As well as considering the weight, what is the legality of an A-frame in Europe next year. I'm assuming my a-frame will no longer be legal in Europe once we've left. The argument that as it's legal in the UK it's legal in Europe presumably won't apply. Only an issue if you plan to tow into Europe.
 
Thank all of you all for your input, it is truly helpful for me going forward. Hope you all have a lovely spell of relative freedom in the coming weeks and months.
 
RetiredPope said:
As well as considering the weight, what is the legality of an A-frame in Europe next year. I'm assuming my a-frame will no longer be legal in Europe once we've left. The argument that as it's legal in the UK it's legal in Europe presumably won't apply. Only an issue if you plan to tow into Europe.
Click to expand...
your A frame is not legal in Europe NOW... never mind next year ;)

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
From an A Frame supplier. I know they are biased.

Am I legal in Europe?
Countries like Spain and Germany have local laws that state you may not tow a motor vehicle
with another motor vehicle unless an authorised break down vehicle. To avoid rope towing etc.
1. You will not be towing a motor vehicle. You will be towing a car that is converted to a trailer.
That complies with all European trailer legislation. That is identified as a trailer by the
reflective triangles, the towing vehicles numberplate, the brakes operated solely by braking
in the towing vehicle, and the lights duplicating that of the towing vehicle.
2. Their local laws (Not European Laws) Apply if you are a resident and have lived there
greater than 6 months, or if your vehicle is registered in that country. In which case A-frame
towing would be illegal.
3. If you are travelling/holidaying for less than 6 months in that country then: No state has the
power to reclassify a vehicle travelling from another state. As a visitor from another state
you are legal under the powers of international traffic as defined in the Vienna convention,
as long as your combination of vehicles are legal in your home country (see opposite).
4. Your local police officer may not be familiar with international traffic and far more familiar
with their local laws, and as such it is possible you may get stopped. This is why we provide
translated documents explaining what you are towing and its legality, to produce if needed.
The reality is that far fewer people are stopped than is made of by gossip and internet posts.
And often these people that are stopped are either, not compliant and therefore rightly
stopped, or stopped for some other reason.
5. Despite installing hundreds of A-frames each year, we have only ever known of one of our
customers being stopped abroad (in Spain). It was because they had a brake light out on
their towcar. After the light was sorted and the police officer was shown the braking system
working, they were permitted to continue without a problem.
Another was the Mont Blanc Tunnel, which upon presentation of their provided international
traffic documentation, were permitted to continue. The truth is we get far more reports of
successful trips passing numerous authorities without being stopped. The law is on your
side if you do things properly.
As a holidaymaker staying less than six months in a European country YOU ARE
LEGAL provided your A-frame system complies with the required trailer legislation
to be legal in UK.
 
David and Sally said:
As a holidaymaker staying less than six months in a European country YOU ARE
LEGAL provided your A-frame system complies with the required trailer legislation
to be legal in UK.
Click to expand...

That's my understanding of the current situation, but next year we won't be coming from another state within the EU, so the situation will have changed. Be interested in their comments regarding next year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: p-c
David and Sally said:
From an A Frame supplier. I know they are biased.

Am I legal in Europe?
Countries like Spain and Germany have local laws that state you may not tow a motor vehicle
with another motor vehicle unless an authorised break down vehicle. To avoid rope towing etc.
1. You will not be towing a motor vehicle. You will be towing a car that is converted to a trailer.
That complies with all European trailer legislation. That is identified as a trailer by the
reflective triangles, the towing vehicles numberplate, the brakes operated solely by braking
in the towing vehicle, and the lights duplicating that of the towing vehicle.
2. Their local laws (Not European Laws) Apply if you are a resident and have lived there
greater than 6 months, or if your vehicle is registered in that country. In which case A-frame
towing would be illegal.
3. If you are travelling/holidaying for less than 6 months in that country then: No state has the
power to reclassify a vehicle travelling from another state. As a visitor from another state
you are legal under the powers of international traffic as defined in the Vienna convention,
as long as your combination of vehicles are legal in your home country (see opposite).
4. Your local police officer may not be familiar with international traffic and far more familiar
with their local laws, and as such it is possible you may get stopped. This is why we provide
translated documents explaining what you are towing and its legality, to produce if needed.
The reality is that far fewer people are stopped than is made of by gossip and internet posts.
And often these people that are stopped are either, not compliant and therefore rightly
stopped, or stopped for some other reason.
5. Despite installing hundreds of A-frames each year, we have only ever known of one of our
customers being stopped abroad (in Spain). It was because they had a brake light out on
their towcar. After the light was sorted and the police officer was shown the braking system
working, they were permitted to continue without a problem.
Another was the Mont Blanc Tunnel, which upon presentation of their provided international
traffic documentation, were permitted to continue. The truth is we get far more reports of
successful trips passing numerous authorities without being stopped. The law is on your
side if you do things properly.
As a holidaymaker staying less than six months in a European country YOU ARE
LEGAL provided your A-frame system complies with the required trailer legislation
to be legal in UK.
Click to expand...
Yep and i have laminated sheets provided by LNB in every European language. but doesn't stop the pull over by some over zealous Spanish copper, never happened yet, thank goodness (maybe i have just tempted fate)
 
Towcars2Towbars in Grimsby will trade in your old car for one of theirs already fitted with a lightweight A frame, and check out your van electrics are suitable and safe. Can't recommend them highly enough

Home

tow-bars2tow-cars.co.uk tow-bars2tow-cars.co.uk

Having said that, and towed on an A frame for about 5 years, if I had space at home for a trailer I would prefer to put the small car onto a trailer....
 
David and Sally said:
From an A Frame supplier. I know they are biased.

Am I legal in Europe?
Countries like Spain and Germany have local laws that state you may not tow a motor vehicle
with another motor vehicle unless an authorised break down vehicle. To avoid rope towing etc.
1. You will not be towing a motor vehicle. You will be towing a car that is converted to a trailer.
That complies with all European trailer legislation. That is identified as a trailer by the
reflective triangles, the towing vehicles numberplate, the brakes operated solely by braking
in the towing vehicle, and the lights duplicating that of the towing vehicle.
2. Their local laws (Not European Laws) Apply if you are a resident and have lived there
greater than 6 months, or if your vehicle is registered in that country. In which case A-frame
towing would be illegal.
3. If you are travelling/holidaying for less than 6 months in that country then: No state has the
power to reclassify a vehicle travelling from another state. As a visitor from another state
you are legal under the powers of international traffic as defined in the Vienna convention,
as long as your combination of vehicles are legal in your home country (see opposite).
4. Your local police officer may not be familiar with international traffic and far more familiar
with their local laws, and as such it is possible you may get stopped. This is why we provide
translated documents explaining what you are towing and its legality, to produce if needed.
The reality is that far fewer people are stopped than is made of by gossip and internet posts.
And often these people that are stopped are either, not compliant and therefore rightly
stopped, or stopped for some other reason.
5. Despite installing hundreds of A-frames each year, we have only ever known of one of our
customers being stopped abroad (in Spain). It was because they had a brake light out on
their towcar. After the light was sorted and the police officer was shown the braking system
working, they were permitted to continue without a problem.
Another was the Mont Blanc Tunnel, which upon presentation of their provided international
traffic documentation, were permitted to continue. The truth is we get far more reports of
successful trips passing numerous authorities without being stopped. The law is on your
side if you do things properly.
As a holidaymaker staying less than six months in a European country YOU ARE
LEGAL provided your A-frame system complies with the required trailer legislation
to be legal in UK.
Click to expand...
Ask them to give you a written guarantee that they’ll pay any fines or other costs incurred if your stopped and they won’t
I asked three different A-frame manufacturers at the NEC a few years back and they became evasive and wouldn't give me a definitive answer
 
Last edited:
RetiredPope said:
I'm assuming my a-frame will no longer be legal in Europe once we've left.
Click to expand...
It isn't now as others have stated
TCG said:
your A frame is not legal in Europe NOW... never mind next year ;)
Click to expand...
(y)
David and Sally said:
From an A Frame supplier. I know they are biased.

Am I legal in Europe?
Countries like Spain and Germany have local laws that state you may not tow a motor vehicle
with another motor vehicle unless an authorised break down vehicle. To avoid rope towing etc.
1. You will not be towing a motor vehicle. You will be towing a car that is converted to a trailer.
That complies with all European trailer legislation. That is identified as a trailer by the
reflective triangles, the towing vehicles numberplate, the brakes operated solely by braking
in the towing vehicle, and the lights duplicating that of the towing vehicle.
2. Their local laws (Not European Laws) Apply if you are a resident and have lived there
greater than 6 months, or if your vehicle is registered in that country. In which case A-frame
towing would be illegal.
3. If you are travelling/holidaying for less than 6 months in that country then: No state has the
power to reclassify a vehicle travelling from another state. As a visitor from another state
you are legal under the powers of international traffic as defined in the Vienna convention,
as long as your combination of vehicles are legal in your home country (see opposite).
4. Your local police officer may not be familiar with international traffic and far more familiar
with their local laws, and as such it is possible you may get stopped. This is why we provide
translated documents explaining what you are towing and its legality, to produce if needed.
The reality is that far fewer people are stopped than is made of by gossip and internet posts.
And often these people that are stopped are either, not compliant and therefore rightly
stopped, or stopped for some other reason.
5. Despite installing hundreds of A-frames each year, we have only ever known of one of our
customers being stopped abroad (in Spain). It was because they had a brake light out on
their towcar. After the light was sorted and the police officer was shown the braking system
working, they were permitted to continue without a problem.
Another was the Mont Blanc Tunnel, which upon presentation of their provided international
traffic documentation, were permitted to continue. The truth is we get far more reports of
successful trips passing numerous authorities without being stopped. The law is on your
side if you do things properly.
As a holidaymaker staying less than six months in a European country YOU ARE
LEGAL provided your A-frame system complies with the required trailer legislation
to be legal in UK.
Click to expand...

& the answer to no: 1 is " excellent sir so you have ho problem with us checking the load suitability & security & loading a tonne of nutty slack in your 'trailer'?":unsure:

David and Sally said:
As a holidaymaker staying less than six months in a European country YOU ARE
LEGAL provided your A-frame system complies with the required trailer legislation
to be legal in UK.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately whoever wrote that does not know the law. The EU directive ,which most state s adhere to, allows 90 consecutive days in one country after which you automatically become a resident, whether you apply or not. You becoming 'resident' immediately makes the UK registered vehicle illegal as a "resident" cannot drive a vehicle in his resident state that is registered in another EU state.
You might argue but you also have to remember that all 'fines' issued now come under the ley de mordaza , also known as the "gagging law" preventing what most would term free speech, & as such to appeal a deposit of 900€ has to be made.& that is for each offence.
 
It is reassuring that someone one here knows the law and assured us that the manufacturer of the product does not 🤣🤣🤣
Well I will not be towing abroad a frame or trailer, 🙂
 
I have a A Frame from Towtal nothing wrong with them sturdy, solid, well made but....... they are very heavy because they break mechanically and it made that way to pull heavier toad.
 
David and Sally said:
1. You will not be towing a motor vehicle. You will be towing a car that is converted to a trailer.
Click to expand...
And that is the stumbling block.
A trailer does not have a propulsion engine.
A trailer is not liable for road fund licence.
A trailer is not required to have insurance.
A trailer does not require an MOT.
A car requires all FOUR and all FOUR are present.
It is a towed car.
It's only DVLA who class it as a trailer IF it meets all trailer regulations, including reversing without undue resistance..
 
Steve and Denise said:
I have had most a frames avoid Towtal and Armitage, towing aframes Chesterfield nicely made light weight and value for money if you can get past the woman on the phone, next towbar 2 towcars good service and works well quite light, then towmaster2 easy to use being telescopic but pricey, I have the later on our car but it came as a package. 🙂
Click to expand...

What’s the issue with TowTal, I have my C1 booked in to get fitted out next month?

thanks
 
Towtal have been fantastic with me no issues what so ever.
 
Another vote for Towtal. Nothing wrong with the system and it’s affordable. It won’t suit some as it’s heavy but I like it that way.
 
I have a Towtal a frame and RViBrake2 brake unit. The a frame is heavy but fitted to a Kia Rio 3 is re assuring. When fitting they did let me down with the RVi brake unit so I obtained it direct from the manufacturer in the US. It’s a good unit that allows reversing , subject to steering limitations, and enables monitoring of performance and testing from the remote unit in the mhome cab.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Linda and Steph said:
What’s the issue with TowTal, I have my C1 booked in to get fitted out next month?

thanks
Click to expand...
From your forum name you are 2 ladies you will never manage to fit the frame to your car unless you are built like a rugby player, you would be much better looking at taf Chesterfield if you are going for an over run type of frame, I know I have had both, good luck.

Ps you may want to ask Terry and Lisa about Towtal and the major cock up they had 🙂
 
Here we go again ... let me get my popcorn out.

A car on an A-frame is NOT a trailer, it has never been legally approved as a trailer. It's only when someone is tried in court for using one that the ruling will then determined whether it is legal or not. In the UK we don't work on the principle that something is legal if there is no law specifically against it.

In some countries abroad they do NOT permit one vehicle to tow another except for emergency or recovery services hence why using an A-frame there is not allowed regardless of what a UK supplier says as the vehicle is NOT a trailer, it is a car, thus doing an illegal act.
 
Darn it ... forgot to munch me popcorn .... :pop:
 
Steve and Denise said:
From your forum name you are 2 ladies you will never manage to fit the frame to your car unless you are built like a rugby player, you would be much better looking at taf Chesterfield if you are going for an over run type of frame, I know I have had both, good luck.

Ps you may want to ask Terry and Lisa about Towtal and the major cock up they had 🙂
Click to expand...
Don't get me started Steve 😀

We would never recommend Towtal 😞 Their system had a fault ( because of a badly routed brake cable ) caused our brakes to bind which caused them to set on fire. We were lucky that I felt a slight pull back on the van and stopped to check or we would have lost the car and possibly the van. To compound matters we were not impressed with the way they initially dealt with it all trying to blame us then admitting fault.Terible customer service ! Long, long story 😥

Then went to TAF Chesterfield. Excellent system but shame about the owner's wife on reception. That woman is a compulsive liar!
Like Steve says, if you can put up with her BS then you won't be disappointed with the product.

Good luck 👍
 
We did sign the Vienna convention, Just never got round to ratifying it, look it up
so quoting that wont help you in court.
although after we leave we will have to ratify it or the EU will hit us over the head with it

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Join us

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Back
Top