180hp engine and 9 speed auto warnings (20 Viewers)

[simonwelham]

Not sure if anyone can help, or if you’ve suffered the same problem. I have a 2021 Adria Sonic Supreme 810 on a Fiat Ducato 180hp with 9 sp auto gearbox bought from new. It is one of the last of the series 7 Ducatos. As a 5 tonne van I have always felt that 180hp is not quite enough in difficult circumstance e.g. roads with hills, as it is always sluggish to change down and will let the speed bleed off very quickly first. Taking control, either by shifting to manual, or kicking down works for a while but then a red engine or gearbox temperature light comes on along with an alternating amber check engine message and an amber ‘auto stop/start inoperative’ icon. Shutting down resets the red warning but not the amber messages. In the first year, the van was with a Fiat Professional dealer for close to 4 months until finally FIAT agreed to replace the transmission control unit (TCU). The saved error codes indicated too much use of both brake and accelerator – at the same time, something I suspect is a generic code for something else as I drive with one foot. No problem for two years until last week when in Sweden, and it happened again. We found a Fiat Professional dealer (with an English technician) who read and cleared the fault codes. They were the same as I recall from 2 years ago. He assured us it was not mechanical and it was safe to continue our travels. Since then, it has happened three more times and within 36 hours the ‘electronics’ have reset themselves and extinguished all the warnings. However, something is clearly not right both in that the engine struggles to keep speed on even a moderate incline, and after the fault because the engine revs are very high, 2,500rpm at 60mph in 8th gear. More normally at that speed and in that gear the revs are a tad over 1,500. I will also post on the Ducato forums but any information or guidance would be very much appreciated.

 

[dunnah01]

You get 450Nm of torque from about 1500rpm so it should haul a 5T van along without any problems. It sounds more like there's still a problem in the gearbox which needs further investigation.

 

[Ridgeway]

We have a similar set up and no issues up hills. The Alps are 30mins from our house so we pass over them regularly and so far the van has pulled us up really well and were‘ often running at 5.5t when full.

 

[Scotch mist]

I’m sure I read that some gearboxes( around that age ) had not been filled up to the correct oil level
Making the oil work harder & then in tern get hotter !

I have 180hp & ZF9 on 4.5t , it is far from slow , eats hills

 

[MichaelT]

I’m sure I read that some gearboxes( around that age ) had not been filled up to the correct oil level
Making the oil work harder & then in tern get hotter !

I have 180hp & ZF9 on 4.5t , it is far from slow , eats hills

I was going to say the same, I think Lenny HB has a mate who had similar issues.

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[stevec]

I have a 180hp 9 speed auto that has had some odd symptoms. During some rolling hills driving on the A20 in France with plenty of engine braking I had a gearbox light come on which was accompanied by a message that I did not have time to read before the “check engine” message came up. It was a warm day, probably mid twenties. I stopped for 20 minutes or so and when the engine was restarted the red gearbox warning light was off but the check engine message remained. Also an auto stop/start not available message came up. This message did not reoccur on subsequent start ups.
I contacted Fiat Assist who sent a pickup truck. The driver was obviously a mechanic and he plugged in an OBD reader and cleared the check engine light. He also rigorously test drove the MH and declared everything fine. I’ve had no more error lights for the last couple of weeks. I have noticed though that fifth and sixth gear have been sluggish when accelerating and I have to really push on the accelerator to get anything to happen. This has been the case since new (5000 miles on the clock) although it seems to be more pronounced now. I’m still trying to decide if it’s driving style or a real problem. My chassis was made, I believe in early 2023. We collected it April 2023.

 

[Lazyboy]

Ours also. Same engine and gearbox. Pulls very well. Better now it has just under 20,00 miles on the clock. I do make use of the mode button and use power when on very hilly roads. Yours is definitely revving far too high. Maybe a trip to Adams Morey may bne in order.

 

[yorkiebar]

From the previous comments, I would ask for the gearbox oil levels to be checked. With 180hp, the 9sp should eat the hills up.

 

[Lenny HB]

I have a 180hp 9 speed auto that has had some odd symptoms. During some rolling hills driving on the A20 in France with plenty of engine braking I had a gearbox light come on which was accompanied by a message that I did not have time to read before the “check engine” message came up. It was a warm day, probably mid twenties. I stopped for 20 minutes or so and when the engine was restarted the red gearbox warning light was off but the check engine message remained.

Similar problem on my friend's one that was under filled. He ended up with a new gearbox, torque converter & gearbox ECU.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

The fact that the engine revs are running 1000rpm more than usual in 8th gear suggests that the torque converter isn’t locked when it should be. Low oil level, torque converter or clutch pack control/operation issues but should be easy to diagnose with live data road rest

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[Steve and Denise]

Ours also. Same engine and gearbox. Pulls very well. Better now it has just under 20,00 miles on the clock. I do make use of the mode button and use power when on very hilly roads. Yours is definitely revving far too high. Maybe a trip to Adams Morey may bne in order.

Are you talking ZF here ?

 

[Ridgeway]

Ours also. Same engine and gearbox. Pulls very well. Better now it has just under 20,00 miles on the clock. I do make use of the mode button and use power when on very hilly roads. Yours is definitely revving far too high. Maybe a trip to Adams Morey may bne in order.

Completely forgot about the modes, will have to try “power” now, very curious

 

[ANDKEZLULA]

I had this with my 160 9spd in Germany last year. It started with a violent change down then limp and warning lights. After a cool down it was ok. Back home Fiat professional topped up oil and did a software update. All ok since

 

[Lazyboy]

Are you talking ZF here ?

Yes ZF 9 speed.

 

[simonwelham]

Are you talking ZF here ?

Yes, ZF 9sp auto

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[simonwelham]

The fact that the engine revs are running 1000rpm more than usual in 8th gear suggests that the torque converter isn’t locked when it should be. Low oil level, torque converter or clutch pack control/operation issues but should be easy to diagnose with live data road rest

Thank you , very helpful. One of the FP dealers who looked at in the early stages suggested to me that the ZF box doesn't have its own oil, instead taking it from the engine. I am not a technician so I have no idea if he was telling me porky pies or not.

 

[simonwelham]

Similar problem on my friend's one that was under filled. He ended up with a new gearbox, torque converter & gearbox ECU.

Thank you - I hope it doesn't come to that!

 

[Lenny HB]

Thank you - I hope it doesn't come to that!

£13,000 for parts and £1900 labour.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

Thank you , very helpful. One of the FP dealers who looked at in the early stages suggested to me that the ZF box doesn't have its own oil, instead taking it from the engine. I am not a technician so I have no idea if he was telling me porky pies or not.

It’s not possible to run a ZF box on engine oil so I would be wary of that dealer if that’s their belief.

 

[Guigsy]

Thank you , very helpful. One of the FP dealers who looked at in the early stages suggested to me that the ZF box doesn't have its own oil, instead taking it from the engine. I am not a technician so I have no idea if he was telling me porky pies or not.

BS. An auto box has completely different type of oil.

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[enark]

BS. An auto box has completely different type of oil.

Absolutely, think their is a sad tale on here of a mechanic using engine oil during a service and wrecking the gear box, that may have gone legal?

 

[dunnah01]

Thank you , very helpful. One of the FP dealers who looked at in the early stages suggested to me that the ZF box doesn't have its own oil, instead taking it from the engine. I am not a technician so I have no idea if he was telling me porky pies or not.

He's confusing it with a 60's 850 Mini

 

[yorkiebar]

Absolutely, think their is a sad tale on here of a mechanic using engine oil during a service and wrecking the gear box, that may have gone legal?

Think they used some DOT 4 brake fluid rather than transmission oil

 

[Lenny HB]

He's confusing it with a 60's 850 Mini

Did do an auto mini in those days.

Think they used some DOT 4 brake fluid rather than transmission oil

That was replacing the clutch fluid on a Comformatic.

 

[simonwelham]

So, local garage in Mosjoen, Norway did a full diagnostic check, including a dynamic (moving) one that prompted the fault on a hill. He also discounted the accelerator/ brake fault by replacing a faulty brake pedal sensor. The error code is P1DB7 - torque converter clutch problem - suggesting a replacement transmission unit. None available in Norway or in the UK (I checked via a UK dealer), but one showing in Italy. Pushing for repatriation as unit would be Euro 25,000 here, plus labour. £9,000 ish in UK plus labour.
Total rubbish. The error must have been present two years ago when Northern Commercials changed the TCM under warranty. They just didn't bother to do a dynamic test.
Any ideas to get some financial help from Fiat or NC would be mush appreciated.

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[MichaelT]

So, local garage in Mosjoen, Norway did a full diagnostic check, including a dynamic (moving) one that prompted the fault on a hill. He also discounted the accelerator/ brake fault by replacing a faulty brake pedal sensor. The error code is P1DB7 - torque converter clutch problem - suggesting a replacement transmission unit. None available in Norway or in the UK (I checked via a UK dealer), but one showing in Italy. Pushing for repatriation as unit would be Euro 25,000 here, plus labour. £9,000 ish in UK plus labour.
Total rubbish. The error must have been present two years ago when Northern Commercials changed the TCM under warranty. They just didn't bother to do a dynamic test.
Any ideas to get some financial help from Fiat or NC would be mush appreciated.

Speak to Fiat Assist as it may be a known issue, they may cough up for the box.

 

[yorkiebar]

I take it you don't have the Fiat extended warranty ?

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

2 years after the TCM change will be IMV impossible to get any related warranty agreed as a claim that it wasn’t the original problem.
My view is that a 5t vehicle running the biggest engine option will always need care when used on hills as there is the potential to overdrive the transmission. Power and weight equals heat and as far as I know there won’t be any extra special gearbox coolers fitted. Once the overheating indicator shows, steps should be made to avoid a repeat as overheating auto boxes is very bad news long term.

 

[Tony50]

It’s not possible to run a ZF box on engine oil so I would be wary of that dealer if that’s their belief.

So would I and worried

 

[slowdriver]

I have a 2020 Ducato with the same engine, same gearbox and had a, perhaps, similar problem twice, both times descending the same hill in the Alps when I used the manual override on the ZF box to decrease speed. After a while the dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and went into limp mode including a "drive straight to dealer" warning. I pulled over switched off for 10 minutes, restarted and got orange warning lights on the gearbox and engine, but not red warnings, drove to the local garage in limp mode where checked and then cleared down the faults. The main relevant fault was something about an issue between 4th and 3rd, he checked it over and pronounced all-good. The next year rather foolishly tried the same engine braking technique on the same hill, with the same result and a trip to the same garage. This suggests to me it's an ECU issue rather than a fundamental engine/gearbox issue since I did 9k faultless miles between both occurrences. If you get the same problem around St Gervais Les Bains (between Megeve and Chamonix) I recommend Garage GrandJacques on the Avenue de Miage on the road from St Gervais Le Bain to Les Contamines.

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