‘I was sleeping in laybys’ article

[Langtoftlad]

There is a saying

"There but for the grace of god go I"

You never know what is waiting for you around the corner, you may think you're earning a good living, in good health, enjoying life and in a happy relationship, when out of the blue your job, health or relationship may all go pear shaped.
.
That could lead to mental health issues, lack of money, ability to work. Which could mean that you could become homeless and have to find other accommodation.

Don't anyone think "that couldn't happen to me", because believe me it very easily can.

You'll also find that several homeless are ex-service, unable to fit into 'civvy st' or may be suffering with mental health or ptsd issues.
They were good enough to serve for queen and country!

So don't be too quick to judge as you don't know what story lies behind anyones situation.

I think we "should be bothered about them" because anyone of us could become one of "them".

Agreed
The perceived wisdom is to have 3-6 months of expenses in savings in case sh*t happens
But how many can afford to do that... family, mortgage, car etc
Most people I know just about manage.
The pressure is always on to "improve" or "upgrade" your lifestyle.
It's frightening how soon it can all come tumbling down. I know.
In my case, disaster was averted but close enough for me to make some fundamental changes.

 

[Ivory55]

There is a saying

"There but for the grace of god go I"

You never know what is waiting for you around the corner, you may think you're earning a good living, in good health, enjoying life and in a happy relationship, when out of the blue your job, health or relationship may all go pear shaped.
.
That could lead to mental health issues, lack of money, ability to work. Which could mean that you could become homeless and have to find other accommodation.

Don't anyone think "that couldn't happen to me", because believe me it very easily can.

You'll also find that several homeless are ex-service, unable to fit into 'civvy st' or may be suffering with mental health or ptsd issues.
They were good enough to serve for queen and country!

So don't be too quick to judge as you don't know what story lies behind anyones situation.

I think we "should be bothered about them" because anyone of us could become one of "them".

Someone knew what the post was and they have a very blinkered view and don’t believe anything else goes on. Or maybe just say it to draw fire.

 

[Ivory55]

Agreed
The perceived wisdom is to have 3-6 months of expenses in savings in case sh*t happens
But how many can afford to do that... family, mortgage, car etc
Most people I know just about manage.
The pressure is always on to "improve" or "upgrade" your lifestyle.
It's frightening how soon it can all come tumbling down. I know.
In my case, disaster was averted but close enough for me to make some fundamental changes.

Yes and no. Some people spend and use credit. We never have HP, but then also don’t buy new, and I am far from a big earner.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Yes and no. Some people spend and use credit. We never have HP, but then also don’t buy new, and I am far from a big earner.

Do you have enough instant access savings to cover all your expenses for up to six months?

 

[Wissel]

Should we be bothered about them, may be they had a low paying job and could not make it, because as I was told cream rises to the top.

Wow. Was this a serious comment?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Tombola]

Wow. Was this a serious comment?

it was a dig at me dont worry...hes my online stalker Ill guarantee he didnt mean it/think it through
please ensure brain is in gear before engaging mouth would work well here.

I wont be able to bail him out anymore though as its getting a bit crazy, best I put him on ignore.

 

[PaddyM]

Perhaps all these poor unfortunates could of tried harder at school ? Just a thought .

 

[Oldchappers]

May be austerity is because of the Labour Party mr brown/Blair who opened the floodgates back in the 90s .

Floodgates? Really? .... Our societal issues and high levels of poverty go back a lot further than the 90’s.

 

[Coolcats]

Sadly they can also bite your hand off. Does make you cynical

Indeed It’s not a perfect world and I think with Timpsons they give people one chance which is fair I think

 

[Coolcats]

Perhaps all these poor unfortunates could of tried harder at school ? Just a thought .

What’s School got to do with it? Many highly successful people do not rate their School days, it’s not unheard of for people to leave school without any qualification and end up with a PhD

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Oldchappers]

I genuinely believe some of these people chose to live in converted buses and vans and the like, some even chose to be homeless a lot will have mental health issues and I guess lots will be drug and or alcohol dependent and no matter what government gets in these people will always be here

Big difference between making and having no/little choice. Consider that the drugs and alcohol came as a consequence of rather than the cause of. Now we’re talking the vast majority.

 

[Grummyb]

When I was a kid growing up in Northampton there was a well known tramp (or homeless person in todays language)called smelly Bennett who everyone avoided not because he wasn't a nice person just because he stank to high heaven i can't remember if he was a top London lawyer or accountant but his marriage broke down and that sent him doolally which he whu he ended up a tramp so as Langtoft lad said it could happen to anyone of us its nothing to do with upbringing

 

[Northernraider]

I am a fulltimer, I disagree. It will only 'ruin' peoples lives who hang around in groups of vans and trespass on other peoples properties.

Most fulltimers drive on their own and not in a group, and those who trespass get what they deserve. Sorry to be unsympathetic.

Time will tell on that front. The uk isnt vanlife friendly and outside of campsites its not very motorhome friendly either. This bill affects all not just those in groups ...it classes anything more than 1 van as a group .

 

[Jim]

Time will tell on that front. The uk isnt vanlife friendly and outside of campsites its not very motorhome friendly either. This bill affects all not just those in groups ...it classes anything more than 1 van as a group .

It only affects those who when asked, refuse to move when parked on private property. If that's you, the new bill will affect you.

It will affect me.

I can rest easier at night knowing that if, like a friend of mine recently, a gaggle of low-life just park on his small campsite, chasing real customers off and refusing to pay, while the police and council shrug and do nothing apart from offer advice to be nice to them and maybe start court proceedings if he really wants to get them moved. I will soon be able to move them easily, immediately.

Bring it on, the law is well overdue.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Agreed
The perceived wisdom is to have 3-6 months of expenses in savings in case sh*t happens
But how many can afford to do that... family, mortgage, car etc
Most people I know just about manage.
The pressure is always on to "improve" or "upgrade" your lifestyle.
It's frightening how soon it can all come tumbling down. I know.
In my case, disaster was averted but close enough for me to make some fundamental changes.

Depends on attitude. I've known a young couple on a high joint income who were out of control and were ventually declared bankrupt after a house refurbishment that even Boris and Carrie would envy. Solid gold electrical fittings, really necessary? At the other end of the scale, I once had a nurse GF who always saved part of her small NHS salary, rented a cottage, and owned a small car. Lived a good life too.

I had a bad patch when my income fell to almost nothing and I needed to cut back drastically on every kind of expenditure. It would have been too easy to blow the savings and borrow to keep the same lifestyle until the mortgage lender chucked me onto the street. Good practice for living off a small pension!

Edit: pressure .. always on to "improve" or "upgrade" your lifestyle - that pressure thankfully ceased when the ex-missus decided I wasn't keeping her in the lifestyle she desired to compete with her wealthier sister and BIL, and binned our marriage. How shallow and materialistic is that.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Ivory55]

Do you have enough instant access savings to cover all your expenses for up to six months?

To be honest we are one of those with low out going’s, the van has been sorned for a while now. We don’t smoke or drink much, or go out much so our bills are quite small.

 

[Gromett]

Time will tell on that front. The uk isnt vanlife friendly and outside of campsites its not very motorhome friendly either. This bill affects all not just those in groups ...it classes anything more than 1 van as a group .

The UK is friendly enough for my needs. I never travel in a group. I don't trespass.

So time has nothing to do with it.

This law is long overdue and will end the scourge of the part of the travelling community who rock up en masse and proceed to destroy an area. I am with Jim on this one.

The youtubing hashtag #vanlifers may be affected, but to be honest I am not of a mind to care. If you respect private property and don't travel in gangs what exactly is bad about this?

 

[Coolcats]

Depends on attitude. I've known a young couple on a high joint income who were out of control and were ventually declared bankrupt after a house refurbishment that even Boris and Carrie would envy. Solid gold electrical fittings, really necessary? At the other end of the scale, I once had a nurse GF who always saved part of her small NHS salary, rented a cottage, and owned a small car. Lived a good life too.

I had a bad patch when my income fell to almost nothing and I needed to cut back drastically on every kind of expenditure. It would have been too easy to blow the savings and borrow to keep the same lifestyle until the mortgage lender chucked me onto the street. Good practice for living off a small pension!

Edit: pressure .. always on to "improve" or "upgrade" your lifestyle - that pressure thankfully ceased when the ex-missus decided I wasn't keeping her in the lifestyle she desired to compete with her wealthier sister and BIL, and binned our marriage. How shallow and materialistic is that.

I think you have summed up the pressures many find themselves under, to me life is like a sailing boat you never know when the next storm is coming, that's not to say I have not succumbed to buying or spending on capital items (such as sports cars). However using the tiller on that sailboat you can bring it home to safe harbour and hope you don't get hit by life's tsunami of S&%t that can hit anyone at anytime.

We all have stories a School mate of mine started with an apprenticeship, worked for a couple of good organisations that provided final salary pensions but being young he decided to become a contractor and self employed. He was blinded by the money, as the years past the value of being a contractor got less, over all he has been out of work for some 10 years he lost 3 houses (not paying the mortgage) had two divorces (on his 3rd wife now) had o pay maintenance for his kids which is right but for a number of years he had to pay double as he would give his Ex Cash and never had a receipt Doh! she took him to court and you can guess he had to pay for child maintenance again! He has an interest free mortgage which he will never pay off, so will possibly get evicted. His current wife will not live in a camper van nor will she live in a mobile home (refers to them in american terms as trailer trash). He also has a magical thinking fools and horses mentality and despite trying to help and give guidance he is on a crash course for life getting harder for him and he is not a bad individual just a bit of a misguided soul.

 

[Wissel]

The UK is friendly enough for my needs. I never travel in a group. I don't trespass.

So time has nothing to do with it.

This law is long overdue and will end the scourge of the part of the travelling community who rock up en masse and proceed to destroy an area. I am with Jim on this one.

The youtubing hashtag #vanlifers may be affected, but to be honest I am not of a mind to care. If you respect private property and don't travel in gangs what exactly is bad about this?

I agree with most of what you've written.

I spent a(nother) few hours yesterday going through section 4 of the Bill and (as currently worded) it won't effect how we fulltime at all. It does now read that that a single van is classed the same as more than one, but it also states that if, for instance, I made a mistake and parked somewhere I shouldn't (easy to do), no offence would be committed unless I refused to move or returned to the same spot within a year.

As I would never knowingly stay somewhere I shouldn't, I'm fine with this.

Where I don't agree is how it will help deal with parts of the Travelling community. The few that cause the problems for land owners are unlikely to care about a new law, and I doubt the Police will do much if they get a call from a campsite owner. They certainly won't impound vehicles IMO.

 

[Ivory55]

I was talking on the phone last night to a mate. He was saying about the money is creeping up, there used to be Romanians where he worked but a lot have gone to Germany better money he was told. Any way they are paying more to get the ones left to do more overtime, but he said to little to late. Got used to less money, to old to up the work rate now, not interested at all. I think that there probably quite a few others thinking the same.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Jim]

The few that cause the problems for land owners are unlikely to care about a new law, and I doubt the Police will do much if they get a call from a campsite owner.

That might well be true. However, up to now the Police have had their hands tied.

If I want someone off my property, I can ask them to leave and use minimum force to eject them if they refuse. However, with some itinerants; for some crazy (IMO) reasons, my right to use minimum force to eject is eroded. The police turn up, no crime has been committed, they say it's a civil matter, sort it out.

When the bill is passed, the Police will have the right to sort it out. I cannot really see the position where police are called to a crime scene and they do nothing at all. Otherwise their chief Constable will be out of a job soonest.

 

[Gromett]

Where I don't agree is how it will help deal with parts of the Travelling community. The few that cause the problems for land owners are unlikely to care about a new law, and I doubt the Police will do much if they get a call from a campsite owner. They certainly won't impound vehicles IMO.

A very similar law in the Republic of Ireland had a massive affect on the travelling community. Coincidentally, that was when we started seeing a massive ramp up of the problems.

I suspect the pressure to enforce this law will be pretty high. The local green being invaded will result in locals very quickly pressuring the police to take action. Don't underestimate this pressure especially when the local MP becomes involved.

edit: typing at the same time as Jim

 

[SpeedyDux]

A very similar law in the Republic of Ireland had a massive affect on the travelling community. Coincidentally, that was when we started seeing a massive ramp up of the problems.

I suspect the pressure to enforce this law will be pretty high. The local green being invaded will result in locals very quickly pressuring the police to take action. Don't underestimate this pressure especially when the local MP becomes involved.

edit: typing at the same time as Jim

The current Bill addresses only part of the problem. Irish Travellers need to have their statutory protected characteristic removed as well. Keeping that protected characteristic will leave the Police open to complaints of racism. Travellers know that such complaints are always investigated, and there will be fear among coppers of having careers blighted or even disciplinary action leading to dismissal. What a disincentive.

Unlike real Gypsies, Irish Travellers do not in any true sense have a different racial or ethnic heritage. This is pure legal fiction. Irish Travellers are ethnically Irish the same as other Irish people, simple as that. Irish Travellers cling to their (alleged) aversion to living in bricks and mortar (statistically about 80% live in houses and many are owner-occupied), and cling to the (alleged) right to pursue a nomadic lifestyle and culture. That can't really be a legal right if exercising it means trashing public or private land, or mass invasions of private campsites without paying, all of which is a civil tort anyway, soon to become a criminal offence with or without criminal damage.

Whether the Police will use their new powers remains to be seen. Relentless public pressure will be necessary, I suspect.

 

[Gromett]

The current Bill addresses only part of the problem. Irish Travellers need to have their statutory protected characteristic removed as well. Keeping that protected characteristic will leave the Police open to complaints of racism. Travellers know that such complaints are always investigated, and there will be fear among coppers of having careers blighted or even disciplinary action leading to dismissal. What a disincentive.

Unlike real Gypsies, Irish Travellers do not in any true sense have a different racial or ethnic heritage. This is pure legal fiction. Irish Travellers are ethnically Irish the same as other Irish people, simple as that. Irish Travellers cling to their (alleged) aversion to living in bricks and mortar (statistically about 80% live in houses and many are owner-occupied), and cling to the (alleged) right to pursue a nomadic lifestyle and culture. That can't really be a legal right if exercising it means trashing public or private land, or mass invasions of private campsites without paying, all of which is a civil tort anyway, soon to become a criminal offence with or without criminal damage.

Whether the Police will use their new powers remains to be seen. Relentless public pressure will be necessary, I suspect.

You know much more about the law than I do obviously. But surely laws that are applied equally and without prejudice or favour do not have any impact on "protected characteristics"?

I can see where you are coming from though. I suspect the public pressure will be enough to get things moving to the point where it becomes more hassle than it is worth for them. Hopefully they will either shift back to Ireland or choose another country. As they are members of the EU they have the pick of all the other countries.

 

[Langtoftlad]

To be honest we are one of those with low out going’s, the van has been sorned for a while now. We don’t smoke or drink much, or go out much so our bills are quite small.

But the principle still applies - whatever the level of expenditure.
Even if your monthly outgoings are only £500, still recommended to have upto £3k in instant access.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Ivory55]

But the principle still applies - whatever the level of expenditure.
Even if your monthly outgoings are only £500, still recommended to have upto £3k in instant access.

We have stock piles in the cupboards, have done for years, usually min 3 months of coal and wood, plus money so I guess we would be ok.
Plus with no hp don’t owe any body anything.

 

[SpeedyDux]

You know much more about the law than I do obviously. But surely laws that are applied equally and with prejudice or favour do not have any impact on "protected characteristics"?

I can see where you are coming from though. I suspect the public pressure will be enough to get things moving to the point where it becomes more hassle than it is worth for them. Hopefully they will either shift back to Ireland or choose another country. As they are members of the EU they have the pick of all the other countries.

OK I will try to explain. As things stand, the ongoing risk of complaints of racism will be a deterrent for the forces of law and order whenever the public demands they take action under the new powers.

It's because Irish Traveller is defined legally as a separate race (race being a protected characteristic under Equalities law).

As long as the Irish Traveller is deemed to belong to a separate race for legal purposes, he can carry on playing the victim / racist card on the basis that Irish Travellers are a marginalised, disadvantaged, and oppressed ethnic minority race. Instead of officially being a sub-set of Irish people who happen to be itinerants at least some of the time. He will be supported by activist social justice warriors and their organisations.

Therefore, if the Police arrest an Irish Traveller or seize his vehicle the accusation (or formal complaint) will be that this action is racist, because the Police have picked on him only because he is an Irish Traveller. Therefore he is being treated less favourably (i.e. discriminated against) than would be the case if he were an ordinary Irish (or even English) feller living with his family in a caravan under similar circumstances. In other words the allegation of racism rests on a presumption that an English FLT would be treated more favourably, not be arrested, not have his vehicle seized by Police. This is absolute tosh, and against common sense. I fully expect the Police will need to be seen harassing some English FLTs and van lifers to balance the statistics, as happened with stop and search when accusations of racial profiling were made.

 

[Jim]

OK I will try to explain. As things stand, the ongoing risk of complaints of racism will be a deterrent for the forces of law and order whenever the public demands they take action under the new powers.

It's because Irish Traveller is defined legally as a separate race (race being a protected characteristic under Equalities law).

As long as the Irish Traveller is deemed to belong to a separate race for legal purposes, he can carry on playing the victim / racist card on the basis that Irish Travellers are a marginalised, disadvantaged, and oppressed ethnic minority race. Instead of officially being a sub-set of Irish people who happen to be itinerants at least some of the time. He will be supported by activist social justice warriors and their organisations.

Therefore, if the Police arrest an Irish Traveller or seize his vehicle the accusation (or formal complaint) will be that this action is racist, because the Police have picked on him only because he is an Irish Traveller. Therefore he is being treated less favourably (i.e. discriminated against) than would be the case if he were an ordinary Irish (or even English) feller living with his family in a caravan under similar circumstances. In other words the allegation of racism rests on a presumption that an English FLT would be treated more favourably, not be arrested, not have his vehicle seized by Police. This is absolute tosh, and against common sense. I fully expect the Police will need to be seen harassing some English FLTs and van lifers to balance the statistics, as happened with stop and search when accusations of racial profiling were made.

Don't buy that argument at all. So arresting an itinerant for breaking the law is racist. How? His turn to go to court. Karma is a bastard.

Remember the law is only broken if you refuse to go, or return within 12 months. To be arrested you need to break the law. I don't think FLts will break the law, they'll move on, so they will hardly be arrested to prove impartiality.

 

[Gromett]

Therefore, if the Police arrest an Irish Traveller or seize his vehicle the accusation (or formal complaint) will be that this action is racist, because the Police have picked on him only because he is an Irish Traveller.

I was with you until this point...

So if an Irish traveller murders someone it would be racist to arrest them? If they drive while using a mobile phone it is racist to fine them?

I am sorry, but I just don't see your argument holding much water these days.

The Asian rape gangs have meant that police don't cave to that argument as much as they used to.

Local and MP pressure will put paid to any racist claims. I think in this case it is a bogus argument and will very quickly be knocked on it's arse if it is tried both in the court of public opinion and the law courts equally.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I was with you until this point...

So if an Irish traveller murders someone it would be racist to arrest them? If they drive while using a mobile phone it is racist to fine them?

I am sorry, but I just don't see your argument holding much water these days.

The Asian rape gangs have meant that police don't cave to that argument as much as they used to.

Local and MP pressure will put paid to any racist claims. I think in this case it is a bogus argument and will very quickly be knocked on it's arse if it is tried both in the court of public opinion and the law courts equally.

You have attributed my explanation of their argument to me. I was merely trying to explain the legal background that forms a spurious basis for their complaints. The separate race is the legal hook on which they hang their unfounded complaints. To me it doesn't make any sense.

I give up.

I think Jim grasps the point I was making.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}