Auto trail Apache (what use are they?)

swiftsteve · May 22, 2019

Looking to upgrade our swift sundance, we very nearly did the deal, at the Newbury show, on an autotrail apache. It was everything we were looking for: large fixed transverse bed, garage, large lounge area. Got a reasonable price for ours in PX.
Then I thought I'd do a bit of research before signing on the dotted, gross weight 3500kg, MRO 3275kg, 225kg payload, without taking the 3% +/- into acccount

. That's me and the missus and about a litre of diesel! No wonder there's so many out there cheap.
Everytime I see one on the road now, I'm thinking yeah he's overweight.
Is anyone on here using one of these legally??
I have noticed that dealers trying to sell these don't enter the payload details in their ads.

Tude · May 22, 2019

Most sizeable vans at that weight are crap for payload

MikeD · May 22, 2019

I doubt that such a van would ever sell with that payload to people who have any experience in using motorhomes.

Blue Knight · May 22, 2019

The payload goes down to c.77kg (without water) if you add everything from the spec list.

We've got a Funster who is running one legally but he's had to register it at 3,850kg; travels light, and balances his axles very well.

The rest of the Apache owners are probably illegal and by some distance too.

I saw one 634 last year with everything fitted including a scooter on a towbar and he was registered at 3.5T. I reckon he was travelling at close to 4.1T and way over the capability of the chassis and the ancillary equipment.

The Apache is also one of the Autotrail flagship models for water ingress problems so I think you've done well to avoid it.

All the best,

Andrew

pelican · May 22, 2019

Crikey
224kg you would have to go on a radical diet to make it work

swiftsteve · May 22, 2019

It's always one of the questions I ask, the salesmen always say "they'll have to find out".

Blue Knight · May 22, 2019

swiftsteve said:
It's always one of the questions I ask, the salesmen always say "they'll have to find out".

Have you browsed this thread

:

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/itsy-bitsy-teenie-weenie-payloads.194995/

Louis · May 22, 2019

Blue Knight said:
The payload goes down to c.77kg (without water) if you add everything from the spec list.

We've got a Funster who is running one legally but he's had to register it at 3,850kg; travels light, and balances his axles very well.

The rest of the Apache owners are probably illegal and by some distance too.

I saw one 634 last year with everything fitted including a scooter on a towbar and he was registered at 3.5T. I reckon he was travelling at close to 4.1T and way over the capability of the chassis and the ancillary equipment.

The Apache is also one of the Autotrail flagship models for water ingress problems so I think you've done well to avoid it.

All the best,

Andrew

I’m sorry to disagree but your facts are inaccurate

Blue Knight · May 22, 2019

Louis said:
I’m sorry to disagree but your facts are inaccurate

Do tell? Which bit - quote your figures while you're at it, I'm intrigued.

CazPaul · May 22, 2019

Blue Knight said:
The payload goes down to c.77kg (without water) if you add everything from the spec list.

We've got a Funster who is running one legally but he's had to register it at 3,850kg; travels light, and balances his axles very well.

The rest of the Apache owners are probably illegal and by some distance too.

I saw one 634 last year with everything fitted including a scooter on a towbar and he was registered at 3.5T. I reckon he was travelling at close to 4.1T and way over the capability of the chassis and the ancillary equipment.

The Apache is also one of the Autotrail flagship models for water ingress problems so I think you've done well to avoid it.

All the best,

Andrew

Funny you should say that Andrew, been on a site in Durham for a week, a couple pulled up in an Apache 2012 model, only had it 3 months, they had just that day had a solar panel fitted on Friday at Hedleys in Gilesgate, Saturday as you know it rained all day
Sunday they had water coming in and found lots of damp in the roof, I felt so sorry for them, they were distraught and really worried, a lovely couple bought privately and he was retiring in August, they were planning lots of trips.

Louis · May 23, 2019

Blue Knight said:
Do tell? Which bit - quote your figures while you're at it, I'm intrigued.

I’m afraid you grabbed speculative figures. You assume another running close or over limit, but you certainly said “ over the capabilities of the chassis” , where did you get this info from? You mention three or four with leaks and or overweight ? Now Sir , your the one quoting figures not me,

Cheshirecat57 · May 23, 2019

Hi @Louis
Do you run an Apache yourself.?

Louis · May 23, 2019

Cheshirecat57 said:
Hi @Louis
Do you run an Apache yourself.?

Yes of course I do

, whatever made you ask that question ?

Cheshirecat57 · May 23, 2019

I wondered what your’s weighs, (in touring/loaded trim) so fact rather than potential hear-say?
Might help potential buyers of the model

Louis · May 23, 2019

To be honest my Apache has been uprated to 4280kgs. I need to weigh it loaded with four bikes and personal items for five people before the summer hols, just in case. I didn’t bother with the last van but I’m more wary with this one

Blue Knight · May 23, 2019

Louis said:
To be honest my Apache has been uprated to 4280kgs. I need to weigh it loaded with four bikes and personal items for five people before the summer hols, just in case. I didn’t bother with the last van but I’m more wary with this one

Do you own an Apache 700 by any chance Louis. The OP, Steve, is making reference to an X290 Fiat Light chassis-based 634/632 to which we are all commenting on.

The 634/632-variants with a standard MTPLM of 3.5T, extendable to 3.85T, are probably the most documented vans on the net with weight and damp challenges. There are a number of entries on this forum (some in the last few weeks) and others on the MMM Forum besides others. If you need more info then you'll need to join the Autotrail Unhappy Owners Club (AUOC) to read about some really bad stories - weight, damp, rejection etc.

I'm quite happy to expand in detail on my MY18 AT 634 example, above, with an 3.5T MTPLM and an expected loading figure of 4.1T if you wish.

Cheers,

Andrew

Blue Knight · May 23, 2019

CazPaul said:
Funny you should say that Andrew, been on a site in Durham for a week, a couple pulled up in an Apache 2012 model, only had it 3 months, they had just that day had a solar panel fitted on Friday at Hedleys in Gilesgate, Saturday as you know it rained all day
Sunday they had water coming in and found lots of damp in the roof, I felt so sorry for them, they were distraught and really worried, a lovely couple bought privately and he was retiring in August, they were planning lots of trips.

That's very sad news for the owners Paul - I bet their bubble was burst a wee bit.

robnchris · May 23, 2019

We own an Apache 634 2013 model rated at 3850kg bought brand new and have to say after the initial niggles that most of us get with a new motorhome it has been excellent.
We don't have a tow bar fitted and to be fair there isn't a lot of storage in the motorhome to carry much anyway.
Bought from the makers the frontier cushions which gave us the 45' angle corner seats so we could fit two corner shelves for a 240v table type lamp.
Had the engine remapped at 5000 miles which made it a much more pleasant driving experience and better fuel enconomy and touching a large piece of wood have never had any water ingress problems.

Now would we buy from Auto-trail again, definitely NOT, their build quality has plummeted and quality control is clearly non existent.

Louis · May 23, 2019

Blue Knight said:
Do you own an Apache 700 by any chance Louis. The OP, Steve, is making reference to an X290 Fiat Light chassis-based 634/632 to which we are all commenting on.

The 634/632-variants with a standard MTPLM of 3.5T, extendable to 3.85T, are probably the most documented vans on the net with weight and damp challenges. There are a number of entries on this forum (some in the last few weeks) and others on the MMM Forum besides others. If you need more info then you'll need to join the Autotrail Unhappy Owners Club (AUOC) to read about some really bad stories - weight, damp, rejection etc.

I'm quite happy to expand in detail on my MY18 AT 634 example, above, with an 3.5T MTPLM and an expected loading figure of 4.1T if you wish.

Cheers,

Andrew

Yes I own an Apach as the title of the thread reads. After re-Reading the op’s post I fail to see where he mentions the variant that you are all talking about? As title reads that what I was referring to.
Upto now I’m quite happy with the Apache ( things might change) , so not unhappy and don’t feel the need to join the unhappy club.
Yes I have read plenty of owners complaining of damp.
What I don’t understand is why buy something that is not fit for one’s needs, surely people are aware of weight, especially when one spends thousands on these vehicles, surely one tries to get it right. As for damp & leaks I have no argument, but, stating that all Autotrails on the road are overweight is pure speculation.

Blue Knight · May 23, 2019

Louis said:
After re-Reading the op’s post I fail to see where he mentions the variant that you are all talking abou?.....

........but, stating that all Autotrails on the road are overweight is pure speculation.

Point-1 above: The OP mentions 'Apache' along with 3.5T; an MIRO of 3,275kg and a Payload of 225kg. There are two Apache models which this applies to and then the 700-variant which has an MTPLM of 4,250kg.

Point-2: I didn't say all ATs but I am suggesting that any Apache 632 or 634 registered @ 3.5T is overweight for sure - see below.

Have a look at a 634 @3.5T (as per the OP's initial post), without any gear, just the media pack-2 fitted:

This comes in at 199kg before any '+/-3%' adjustment:

Screenshot_20190523-100851_Samsung Internet.jpg

.......then add a 75kg passenger and the payload reduces to 124kg. This excludes:

Fresh water, loo canister, black water, cooking gear, food, drinks, clothes, tools, larger gas, second hab battery, tv dome, bike rack, tow bar, scooter attachment, scooter or bikes, 150bhp engine upgrade, comformatic box, corner steadies, 90% fuel only, bumper bar, any weight variation as per EU Directive, people who are heavier than 75kg etc etc

...... so you've got 124kg @ 3.5T to allocate to the above list.

Enough said

Louis · May 23, 2019

Blue Knight said:
Point-1 above: The OP mentions 'Apache' along with 3.5T; an MIRO of 3,275kg and a Payload of 225kg. There are two Apache models which this applies to and then the 700-variant which has an MTPLM of 4,250kg.

Point-2: I didn't say all ATs but I am suggesting that any Apache 632 or 634 registered @ 3.5T is overweight for sure - see below.

Have a look at a 634 @3.5T (as per the OP's initial post), without any gear, just the media pack-2 fitted:

This comes in at 199kg before any '+/-3%' adjustment:
View attachment 305493

.......then add a 75kg passenger and the payload reduces to 124kg. This excludes:

Fresh water, loo canister, black water, cooking gear, food, drinks, clothes, tools, larger gas, second hab battery, tv dome, bike rack, tow bar, scooter attachment, scooter or bikes, 150bhp engine upgrade, comformatic box, corner steadies, 90% fuel only, bumper bar, any weight variation as per EU Directive, people who are heavier than 75kg etc etc

...... so you've got 124kg @ 3.5T to allocate to the above list.

Enough said

As I mentioned it does not refer to any variants only to Apache’. But I’m guessing, only guessing mind, that you may have had a slight problem with an Autotrail which I sympathise with you.
As for your last post it’s very informative Thankyou. It’s what I also researched before buying the 700. Then I found that it had been uprated, did the damp check & bobs my uncle, no point in buying a 6 berth motorhome if you can’t carry 6 persons and their luggage is there.

That’s me done also

ABZSteve · May 23, 2019

swiftsteve said:
Looking to upgrade our swift sundance, we very nearly did the deal, at the Newbury show, on an autotrail apache. It was everything we were looking for: large fixed transverse bed, garage, large lounge area. Got a reasonable price for ours in PX.
Then I thought I'd do a bit of research before signing on the dotted, gross weight 3500kg, MRO 3275kg, 225kg payload, without taking the 3% +/- into acccount . That's me and the missus and about a litre of diesel! No wonder there's so many out there cheap.
Everytime I see one on the road now, I'm thinking yeah he's overweight.
Is anyone on here using one of these legally??
I have noticed that dealers trying to sell these don't enter the payload details in their ads.

I use my 634 legally

Blue Knight · May 23, 2019

ABZSteve said:
I use my 634 legally

Post-4, para-2. You've been mentioned Steve in an anonymous fashion

. I was going to refer to you as 'Very handsome Funster' but everyone would have known who I was referring to if I had

Blue Knight · May 23, 2019

Louis said:
But I’m guessing, only guessing mind, that you may have had a slight problem with an Autotrail which I sympathise with you.

....and I'm still scarred from the experience Louis

. I kept my brand new AT for 12-weeks before securing a deal on a different brand. That said, the missus and I love the Apache 634 and were seconds away from buying a 2-month old MY17 van. It was fully loaded with hab batteries, domes, towbar and scooter racks, steadies etc etc but the guy told me that it would be 50kg over the 3.5T limit with me in it - and I'm only 95kg; just a wee bloke compared to some.

Take a look at Jim's 'Teenie Weenie' thread and see how many vans have a neglible payload.

robnchris · May 23, 2019

Blue Knight said:
....and I'm still scarred from the experience Louis . I kept my brand new AT for 12-weeks before securing a deal on a different brand. That said, the missus and I love the Apache 634 and were seconds away from buying a 2-month old MY17 van. It was fully loaded with hab batteries, domes, towbar and scooter racks, steadies etc etc but the guy told me that it would be 50kg over the 3.5T limit with me in it - and I'm only 95kg; just a wee bloke compared to some.

Take a look at Jim's 'Teenie Weenie' thread and see how many vans have a neglible payload.

Surely though an easy exercise to uprate from 3500kg, have to say we have never found the need for steadies on our 634 and one hab battery is plenty for our needs.

Blue Knight · May 23, 2019

robnchris said:
Surely though an easy exercise to uprate from 3500kg, have to say we have never found the need for steadies on our 634 and one hab battery is plenty for our needs.

I totally agree Rob but for many it's still the C1-thing and 3.5T limit that helps with their final purchase.

In an ideal world they would stick a 632 and 634 on a heavy chassis but that would potentially reduce sales - and no converter wants to lose a sale.

Louis · May 23, 2019

Blue Knight said:
....and I'm still scarred from the experience Louis . I kept my brand new AT for 12-weeks before securing a deal on a different brand. That said, the missus and I love the Apache 634 and were seconds away from buying a 2-month old MY17 van. It was fully loaded with hab batteries, domes, towbar and scooter racks, steadies etc etc but the guy told me that it would be 50kg over the 3.5T limit with me in it - and I'm only 95kg; just a wee bloke compared to some.

Take a look at Jim's 'Teenie Weenie' thread and see how many vans have a neglible payload.

Aha, I did that earlier, that’s when the penny dropped- I read your posts. I agree with the OP though, that salesmen have only the commission in sight, neglecting the legal issues that a prospective buyer could face

Blue Knight · May 23, 2019

Louis said:
Aha, I did that earlier, that’s when the penny dropped- I read your posts. I agree with the OP though, that salesmen have only the commission in sight, neglecting the legal issues that a prospective buyer could face

Grab a coffee Louis and take a look at this thread.

In basic terms a nice fellow buys a £130,000 Carthago 'Liner For Two' and after all the kit is added he is left with a 40kg payload for him, his missus, food, clothes etc.

He then rejects the Carthago and orders the 5.4T version instead:

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Chelston-Motorhomes/51632/

gus-lopez · May 23, 2019

Blue Knight said:
He then rejects the Carthago and orders the 5.4T version instead:

Which is still going to be touch & go.

Cheshirecat57 · May 23, 2019

Blue Knight said:
....and I'm still scarred from the experience Louis . I kept my brand new AT for 12-weeks before securing a deal on a different brand. That said, the missus and I love the Apache 634 and were seconds away from buying a 2-month old MY17 van. It was fully loaded with hab batteries, domes, towbar and scooter racks, steadies etc etc but the guy told me that it would be 50kg over the 3.5T limit with me in it - and I'm only 95kg; just a wee bloke compared to some.

Take a look at Jim's 'Teenie Weenie' thread and see how many vans have a neglible payload.

As Andrew knows, my "scarring" was the most expensive 13 weeks of my life as well
Never,ever again will I have an AT, but some love theirs

Auto trail Apache (what use are they?)

Free Member

Free Member

Subscribers do not see these advertisements

Free Member

Free Member

Subscribers do not see these advertisements

Free Member

Free Member

Subscribers do not see these advertisements

Free Member

Free Member

Free Member

Subscribers do not see these advertisements

Free Member

Free Member

Free Member

Subscribers do not see these advertisements

Free Member

Free Member

Free Member

Subscribers do not see these advertisements

^{_{Subscribers do not see these advertisements}}

^{_{Subscribers do not see these advertisements}}

^{_{Subscribers do not see these advertisements}}

^{_{Subscribers do not see these advertisements}}

^{_{Subscribers do not see these advertisements}}

^{_{Subscribers do not see these advertisements}}