C.C.& C. Club ! What a bunch of bankers !! (1 Viewer)

GJH

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Hi Graham, Natural England (Defra as they were) They oversee the exemptions and insisted that a site we exempted earlier this year placed the clause on it's website. They quoted those four words from the legislation that I quoted above.

Two sites we approached this year have ultimately chosen the MCC as they can make more money by being open to members of the public. the MCC's big selling point to land owners is precisely that, in the last paragraph of their CL info sheet they make a big thing about being the only club allowed to do this. Why is the legislation applied differently to two organisations that hold exactly the same exemptions, I have no idea, It gives the MCC an unfair advantage and that is not right.

Thanks Jim.

I thought it must be Natural England which was the body involved. I can see their reasoning but the legislation is certainly ambiguous. Whilst Natural England have their interpretation it is (as is mine) just that. Ultimately only the court can decide as to which is right and (as with other matters we might "frame" an opinion about :Smile:) until a case is heard that decision has not been made.

As regards the MCC, I looked on their web site and see that they use the wording "To maximise your return we are the only Club who license / certify sites for public use." on their CL web page and "The Motor Caravanners’ Club Locations are certificated for open use so they are not ‘members only’." on the CL information guide. Neither sentence actually says that they have been given different rights by Natural England so it could be that they are using the same interpretation as I am.

I totally agree that the legislation should be applied consistently. Indeed, if it is not then it could be a case of maladministration (it certainly would be if it were a local authority). I'll write to my contact at Natural England to establish whether there is court backing for their stance or whether it is merely their interpretation.
 

Jim

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Hi Graham, surely the spirit of the exemption paragraphs in the legislation is to allow recreational clubs to operate outside of the act. IMO allowing the public to use the club sites flouts the whole reason for the exemptions. If Natural England read the legislation differently then I'm happy with that but you would hope they would apply that thinking/policy to all clubs fairly.
 
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Stephen & Jeannie

Stephen & Jeannie

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Correction !

stayed 3 nights on Cranberry moss a couple of years back.

£13pn, pitch big enough for a 33ft rv with electric.

Wont go back....absolutely f### all to do without a bus ride, nearest pub 2mls and not on a bus route, nowt on site at the time (looks like the built a 'club' house since.

Forced membership of c&cc because of the need of arrival breakdown cover otherwise i would not renew.

There are 2 bus routes to Shrewsbury and Oswestry at half hour intervals...Ariva no. 70

Also an additional country route to Oswestry

This site was my main summer site when I was a fulltimer !!!! Nice people running it too !:Cool::Cool::Cool:

edit !!! The Oswestry buses stop right outside of Sainsburys and the Shrewsbury buses go to the town centre !!

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GJH

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Hi Graham, surely the spirit of the exemption paragraphs in the legislation is to allow recreational clubs to operate outside of the act. IMO allowing the public to use the club sites flouts the whole reason for the exemptions. If Natural England read the legislation differently then I'm happy with that but you would hope they would apply that thinking/policy to all clubs fairly.

Or it could be that the spirit of the exemption is to allow recreational clubs to undertake control of smaller sites to save the public expense of local authorities having to do so :Smile:

It is perfectly acceptable for Natural England (or any such body) to apply a policy and I agree that such application should be consistent but a policy which is not backed by legislation can not be enforced.

This sort of thing happens all the time with legislation. Any civil servant who knows their job will not provide a definitive answer in such cases; they always come back with something like "only the court can interpret legislation". I recall seeking clarification on the Representation of the People Act 2000 from whatever Whitehall department was in charge of it at the time and that was the response I received.

I always remember our law lecturer, some 45 years ago, making the point that, where clarity does not exist, the courts try to decide what the will of parliament would have been when passing the legislation - but that can only happen if a case is taken to court of course.
 

Jim

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It is perfectly acceptable for Natural England (or any such body) to apply a policy and I agree that such application should be consistent but a policy which is not backed by[HI] legislation can not be enforced.[/HI]


If we do not do as Natural England insist, then they can just remove our entitlement to provide exemptions. So unless we can afford to take a government department to court, there is very little motorhomefun can do about it. That's enforcement, of a sorts anyway:roflmto:
 

GJH

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If we do not do as Natural England insist, then they can just remove our entitlement to provide exemptions. So unless we can afford to take a government department to court, there is very little motorhomefun can do about it. That's enforcement, of a sorts anyway:roflmto:

I fully appreciate that you are only acting on Natural England's instructions but the point to be established is whether they have the legal power to issue those instructions or whether it is just what they want to do.

We had a similar case with Middlesbrough Council a few years ago. They had put up "No ball games, by order" signs on our estate because somebody complained after a neighbour dispute. When the order was challenged the council had to admit that it had no legal power to make the order so it was void - and the signs were removed :Smile:

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Wildman

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In my opinion it is wrong that the MCC enjoy a favour other clubs do not. How does disagreeing with that obvious imbalance become sour grapes:RollEyes:
The arrangement that MCC made was right at the start of the exemption certificate system and was made with English Heritage the predecessor of Natural England on the grounds that they had so few members that a cl would not be viable without including passing trade (a situation that is not actually excluded in the original act). Pressure by the big two CC and C&CC forced BH to stop that loophole for future applicants but could not change what had been granted.
Anyone applying for an exemption certificate now it well aware of the terms under which it is granted. Trying to stop the MCC allowing passing trade because sites you licence are not officially allowed to do so is sour grapes in my book. All things evolve and young drivers today are pissed off with our grandfathered driving licences but that is the way legislation in this country works, it is not retrospective.
 

mikebeaches

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We had a similar case with Middlesbrough Council a few years ago. They had put up "No ball games, by order" signs on our estate because somebody complained after a neighbour dispute. When the order was challenged the council had to admit that it had no legal power to make the order so it was void - and the signs were removed :Smile:

Sounds like the 'No Overnight Parking' signs that - after being on Scottish laybys for many years - are now being removed, because they had no statutory status. :Smile:

Mike
 

Jim

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Trying to stop the MCC allowing passing trade because sites you licence are not officially allowed to do so is sour grapes in my book.
,

You are the one sounding sour Roger. Who says I am trying to stop anything.I would just like a level playing field, if its good enough for the MCC then it should be good enough for everyone else.

I don't buy the driving license analogy at all, rather its probably more to do with who can afford the lawyers.

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Wildman

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,

You are the one sounding sour Roger. Who says I am trying to stop anything.I would just like a level playing field, if its good enough for the MCC then it should be good enough for everyone else.

I don't buy the driving license analogy at all, rather its probably more to do with who can afford the lawyers.
It was your original post

The MCC flout the legislation and allow the public to use sites they have exempted, so that might be an option for Dylan, however[HI] I have a feeling that this may be challenged very soon.
[/HI]

and subsequent posts that made it clear that you were the one doing the challenging. Without explaining why or understanding how it originally came about that led me to the sour grapes conclusion. I think it a case of not understanding how these things came about. To state the MCC is flouting that legislation, when it is not case surely is Libel. A large number of fun members are members of the MCC, is it wise to antagonise them?
I presumably am one of the two sites that eventually went with the MCC rather than fun but it was not by choice. Originally there were six prospective sites but time passed without licences being issued so they obviously went elsewhere.
As to the driving licence anology, exactly how do you see that as different. It was exactly the same, changes in legislation are not retrospective in this country.
 

GJH

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The arrangement that MCC made was right at the start of the exemption certificate system and was made with English Heritage the predecessor of Natural England on the grounds that they had so few members that a cl would not be viable without including passing trade (a situation that is not actually excluded in the original act). Pressure by the big two CC and C&CC forced BH to stop that loophole for future applicants but could not change what had been granted.
Anyone applying for an exemption certificate now it well aware of the terms under which it is granted. [HI]Trying to stop the MCC allowing passing trade[/HI] because sites you licence are not officially allowed to do so is sour grapes in my book. All things evolve and young drivers today are pissed off with our grandfathered driving licences but that is the way legislation in this country works, it is not retrospective.
Nobody has suggested that have they? The points being discussed are the interpretation of the legislation and the requirement for the legislation to be applied consistently (a requirement of any legislation).

Where does English Heritage come into it? Natural England was created by the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 and took over the functions of English Nature and the Countryside Agency.

The situation with driving licences is entirely different. Current entitlements differ from older ones because of changes to the legislation. The provisions of Para 5 of the First Schedule of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 have not changed - and, thus, any "arrangement" which was legal for the MCC in the past must still be legal now.

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Wildman

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it was one of Jim's earlier posts Graham, at least that's the way I read it.
quote Jim
That they have always done it does not make it right. And it is certainly against the spirit of the legislation. And I am not the only person who thinks this way, someone at Natural England thinks so to. Watch this space
 

Jim

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The MCC is not a person it is a commercial limited company. It seems that for obscure reasons that company exercises a privilege others do not. IMO that is not right. I know this has been discussed by the powers that be quite recently and I will be writing to them as will Graham it seems. My dealings with NE have always been excellent, so I am sure we'll have an answer soon.
 

GJH

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[HI]The MCC is not a person it is a commercial limited company.[/HI] It seems that for obscure reasons that company exercises a privilege others do not. IMO that is not right. I know this has been discussed by the powers that be quite recently and I will be writing to them as will Graham it seems. My dealings with NE have always been excellent, so I am sure we'll have an answer soon.

To be pedantic, the MCC is a "legal person" as opposed to a "natural person" - something some of my fellow students all those years ago found difficult to get their heads around ::bigsmile:

I've sent off an e-mail to NE for clarification on a number of questions so it will be interesting to see what results.

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GJH

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it was one of Jim's earlier posts Graham, at least that's the way I read it.
quote Jim
That they have always done it does not make it right. And it is certainly against the spirit of the legislation. And I am not the only person who thinks this way, someone at Natural England thinks so to. Watch this space

I read that as being a comment on the interpretation of the legislation and the requirement for the legislation to be applied consistently (as I mentioned above).

It seems interpretation of posts also has multiple entities ::bigsmile:
 

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Have I got this wrong or was the exemption certificate intended to be an exemption from the need to apply for planning permission. The organisations that have the power to grant these certificates to those areas of land that in their opinion qualify are surely charged with assessing the land and facilities. It is the local council who would take issue if the area is used in such a way as to flaunt the exemption rules. The limit of five vans is the classic one and transgressors would then be in a change of use situation and need to apply for full planning permission.
One would expect the issue of the exemption certificate to be on behalf and beneficial to their members, but exclusive to their members, I think the legislation would say this if it was what was intended.
It is a valid point that Mike makes about the INF, it exists in the licencing Act for registered clubs who have the ability to sign in non members of clubs, permit visiting sports teams and members of similar clubs under the CIU scheme.
I think the approval of an area without grey and black water dump facilities is much more relevant to the issue of the certificate.
 

GJH

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Planning consent and licensing are two separate issues. The former applies to some sites but not all. Licensing (or exemption from licensing) applies to all sites. Para 13 of the First Schedule of the 1960 Act provides a safeguard whereby a local authority can take action to have an exemption withdrawn from unsuitable land.

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One thing I don't understand yet, who checks up on who's got what, if say, Jim got one for my ground , what happens then, who knows I have one license or another, do you have to have a sign up or what, even so there only a few houses and farms around here, who knows what anyone parking up is a member of, how often does anyone check. We don't have cards as such to say we are members so how could you say someone is or isn't.
 
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I'm afraid you have booked in HIGH season.. and the kids (mine anyway ) are off school until 23rd..

luckily you are a member.. or it would be Total: £54.90 (Non-members: £70.70)

GetAsset.aspx

What's a shoulder season

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GJH

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One thing I don't understand yet, who checks up on who's got what, if say, Jim got one for my ground , what happens then, who knows I have one license or another, do you have to have a sign up or what, even so there only a few houses and farms around here, who knows what anyone parking up is a member of, how often does anyone check. We don't have cards as such to say we are members so how could you say someone is or isn't.

The three main exempted organisations (CC, C&CC and MCC) issue membership cards. In the case of the first two, site owners are supposed to check cards but not all do. Also, some site owners allow more than 5 vans at a time.

In reality it is very difficult to enforce rules because the resources needed aren't available - which is why some people get away with allowing use of their land without either licence or valid exemption.
 

GJH

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What's a shoulder season

From the C&CC web site:
Lots of campers enjoy camping just before and just after the high season period where the weather is good and prices are lower than high season. There is an opportunity to charge a little more for this Shoulder Season period since it is more popular than the rest of mid-season. The additional revenue will be used to reinvest back into Club Sites for the benefit of all members.
 

GJH

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That's another ripoff then, just means they are going to charge what they think they can get away with :Doh:

They could have worded it better (something like discounting high season prices by a lower amount than mid season discount rather than "an opportunity to charge a little more") but it isn't a rip off any more than any other supply & demand driven charging is.

The very essence of supply and demand charging is calculating what the market price is at any given time - which is why (for example) unsold Christmas cards and decorations can be obtained at discounted prices in January. Nothing wrong with that.

Where the C&CC seems to have shot themselves in the foot is by introducing unnecessary complication into both the pricing structure and booking process. We joined the C&CC for THSs and meets plus the CS network. We've never stayed at a C&CC main site and would only do so if convenient (same as CC) but the complication is certainly a deterrence.
 

maz

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That's another ripoff then, just means they are going to charge what they think they can get away with :Doh:

The C&CC have incorporated a whole load of rip-offs into this year's prices - under the guise of being 'beneficial to members'. :RollEyes: See the earlier thread CCC - for 'Beneficial' read 'Rip-Off' : Broken Link Removed

A very few sites might be a little bit cheaper at a few certain times - but on the whole they've just set out to grab as much money as possible. Which is why already this year I have snubbed them in favour of the CC when I've needed a main site for hook-up. Now I'm (pretty much entirely) off hook-up until the autumn and will only be using them for their THSs.
 

Wildman

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One thing I don't understand yet, who checks up on who's got what, if say, Jim got one for my ground , what happens then, who knows I have one license or another, do you have to have a sign up or what, even so there only a few houses and farms around here, who knows what anyone parking up is a member of, how often does anyone check. We don't have cards as such to say we are members so how could you say someone is or isn't.
Generally it is the local authority environmental health dept that does the checking (usually after receiving a complaint from another caravan site owner, hee hee). We have had 2 checks a year ever since we first applied.
As to membership cards on the odd occasion I have used a cc or c&cc cs/cl I have never been asked for a membership card.Most sites are privately owned and the owners just want max income. Oganisations with no membership fee just sign people up as they arrive simple really. Easy to do on fun as CFL's should not be restricted to subscribers over "Members", so I really don't see what the fuss is all about. most CL/CS list a members discount which presupposes they let others in as well.

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scally

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I have used their Oswestry (Cranberry Moss) site frequently in the past 2013 price for 2 nights all singing and dancing pitch for 2 adults ACU rate was £32-70:thumb:

This year It's........£55-90 !!:Angry:

So, all you funsters who ask which club to join, It's bleedin obvious innit ??:whatthe::whatthe::whatthe:

Does anyone know the e-mail address of Robert Lauden the CEO of the club so I can formally tell him to piss off when my membership falls due in July !:Cool::Cool::Cool:

ditched my membership this year for the same reason :Angry::Angry::Angry:
 
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From the C&CC web site:
Lots of campers enjoy camping just before and just after the high season period where the weather is good and prices are lower than high season. There is an opportunity to charge a little more for this Shoulder Season period since it is more popular than the rest of mid-season. The additional revenue will be used to reinvest back into Club Sites for the benefit of all members.

I bet the owners and/or shareholdes take a bigger cut :roflmto:

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