12v Winch (1 Viewer)

ChocNessie

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Does anyone know much about electric winches?

I saw several motorhomes in France last summer with winches fitted to bull bars or front bumpers presumably for when you get stuck in muddy fields or the snowy alps. ;-)

Then low and behold I saw one in operation - superb. The guy let out the steel wire, wrapped it round a tree, hooked the hook back on the wire and winched as he drove. Pulled his MH off the pitch as easy as pie.

So I looked into it only to find that they draw somethinglike 350 to 500 amps under full load and even with no load it takes 50 to 80 amps.:winky:

How can that work..,.,. I know it is only for a short time but..,...
At that rate it must use the vehicle battery and not the leisure ones as the cable run would need a huge swg to carry that much current - so shorter the better.
My vehicle battery is a 100 amp/h and will crank at 830 amps, the alternator is an updated one so charges at 150 amps but only 80 of that goes to the vehicle battery.

So would It harm the system to draw 500 amps over 5 mins and should the engine be on or off.

With the engine on it would obviously assist the vehicle movement and reduce the strain (and current draw) on the winch, but the alternator would be trying to fill that 500 amp draw? Would it not?

Any way any advice about the physics and mechanics would be appreciated,

And before everyone starts - yes I know the best advice is to stay off the mud and snow as a motorhome is not a 4x4. However we do like to get out in the wild and fancy going over the alps may be not in the depths of winter snow but while there is still a bit about.....

Many thanks
Richard
 
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Landy lover

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A number of things you need to think about with a winch - first it is a modification to your vehicle so you will need to advise your insurance company that you have one fitted and it will most likely increase your insurance premium - not least of all because you have increased the value of your vehicle and secondly in the event of an accident the damage to to both vehicles will be greater than if inbuilt crumple zones were allowed to work.

Next to be able to winch you need a fixed point to winch to - seldom do trees grow in the right place when you need them so to be guarenteed a chance of winching yourself out then you will need to carry a ground anchor

Next you need to look at the weight of a winch - most motorhomes are already very close to weight limits - if you add a winch bumper to the front and a winch then you have to look at about 100kg for a serious bit of kit.

I do think your anticipated power demand is wrong - you would be looking at less than that but the majority of people who winch have twin batteries fitted with a heavy duty split charge system to ensure that the power always comes mainly from the 2nd battery when winching and the charge always goes to the starting battery first. They generally have a Heavy Duty Alternator fitted as well so as to keep power going to the batteries.

I have a full winching kit on the Landy and all up it adds about 150kg to it.

IMHO if you want to carry a winch to get you out look at a small portable winch that you can hook onto a tow ball or your front tow eye - use anderson plugs for your power source if you cannot easily get to the battery from front or back Link Removed That will get you out of most situations and will not put massive weight on your payload. If you do decide to get a winch for your safety and others either buy a book on winching protocol or best go on a 1 day course and learn the dangers and safety issues they can easily kill.

Best though walk the area first and don't get stuck :thumb:

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I had one on my Range Rover and yes they do draw a lot of amps it is essential to have the engine running when you are using them. Mine would stall at 3.5 tons weight so in theory would lift the Rangy vertically up a wall LOL never tried that though, the rangy weighs about two tons.

Would need some serious mounting brackets to fix it to your chassis, a bull bar would be insufficient I would think. mine drew about 95 amps in use I believe probably a lot more under load sorry but I cant remember any figures, I can tell you though there was some serious battery draw.

Alos you would have to consider the weight of the thing mine weighed about 50lbs plus the bracketry to fix it so its eating into your payload as well.

Personally I wouldn't put one on my motorhome I dont think the chassis is sufficiently stong enough to cope without some extensive modification. So you would probably end up having about a hundredweight of very rarely used metalwork hanging off the front of your m/home.

Pete
 

rainbow chasers

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He sounds like a menace! Wrapping round a tree without a strop, connecting back to the cable and then driving as he winched......oh dear! :Doh:

Winches will put on weight, and reduce fuel consumption and reduce ground clearance - so you need to consider how often you would use one.

You would need a winch plate at least, and then a suitable winch for the weight of your van - than would probably negate electric winches as you would be near capacity - though you can snatch back to reduce load.

You current system would run a winch for shorter periods - I doubt if you would run them for long anyway, and so long as you keep the engine running, it will be ok.

You need to know what yuou are doing with winches, and how to use them. Taking your vehicle weight, at say 3.5t and buying a winch of that capacity would seem ideal - it isn't, as it would need to be of a larger capacity. You only have 3.5t pulling power when unwound - each layer that goes back on the drum reduces the capacity

You then have to consider how to use it, say if you went on a site bogged yourself down and thought 'Great, I'll get the winch out' - you would need to know the algorythm for assessing the weights (which is why training is required) If bogged down on the level in mud, your winch will need to pull TWICE your vehicle weight. If that was on a slope, 20% for every degree on top of that. You then need something to winch from, a tree may not always be available - and it has to be capable of taking the forces you are asking it to - or else you will have a tree in your roof! Ground anchoes will get over this, but they are bulky, heavy and the owner may not like you shoving that in his lawn!

Not saying don't do it - but research throughly before you buy - you need to assess how useful it will be before buying, and weigh up other options. A 'canadian winch' (branches) may be of more use where available.
 

Geo

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I have a 7.5 Ton RV and never go anywhere without my towing out Kit
Part No.000 1 a Toany Santara for road use
Part No 0002 a Landy Lover for all close up and on site towing
Marvelous bits of kit, add no weight to Rv, even saves on fuel, never go anywhere without it
Cheers boys:thumb:
Geo

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JockandRita

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Hi Richard,

I have used meaty winches either attached to, or built into the length of the chassis of Fire Appliances (front and rear operation) during rescue and recovery incidents. From my practical experience of them and what I know, and, taking into account the excellent advice above, I would never consider fitting one to the front of our MH, seriously. :Eeek: As well as all the technical reasons given, they can be lethal in inexperienced and untrained hands. :whatthe:

In nearly eight years of MH'ing, I have only got stuck once, and that was only because the site owner wouldn't listen to my concerns about a heavy MH on a wet grass pitch at the bottom of a slope, in winter. :Angry: It was a case of "that's the pitch I have allocated you, if you don't like it, you can leave". Needless to say, I ripped up his nice grass pitch when leaving on the Sunday morning, with the aid of Grommet, Geo, Artona, KandS, and others pushing me out. :Doh:
I declined to inform the warden of the damage to his pitch when leaving, and we've never had the slightest inclination to back to that site at Rutland again. :ROFLMAO:

You could do what we do, ie, fit quality M&S/Winter tyres on the driving axle, and as advised above, walk the ground first before traversing. :thumb:

Regards,

Jock.
 
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enery8

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IMHO if you want to carry a winch to get you out look at a small portable winch that you can hook onto a tow ball or your front tow eye - use anderson plugs for your power source if you cannot easily get to the battery from front or back Link Removed That will get you out of most situations and will not put massive weight on your payload. If you do decide to get a winch for your safety and others either buy a book on winching protocol or best go on a 1 day course and learn the dangers and safety issues they can easily kill.

Best though walk the area first and don't get stuck :thumb:[/quote]

I have one of these and although very slow it works. The one I bought also had an extra pulley so the cable can be doubled to give extra power but of course this slows it down a bit more. I have it wired to a 7 pin grey caravan plug and run the engine while using it so no problem with power to operate. Certainly beats pushing or being stuck. I also have a ground anchor as stated above. Useful piece of kit and cheap at the price.
 

stcyr

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The 'Winch-it' portable 12v winch mentioned above is an excellent bit of kit. Only weighs 12kgs, hooks over the towbar or to a towing eye etc. Usually when we've got stuck 2 or 3 'passers-by' giving a push have been enough to overcome the inertia - in the absence of 'passers-by/onlookers' the winch does the job. A 3ft iron bar with a small T-head, hammered in the ground at an acute angle takes the place of the tree which isn't there when needed... :thumb:

It was useful to raise the masts on our boats as well...

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pappajohn

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complete waste of time....this one has a 3000lb dead pull capacity and that is a little under 1.5ton

A 3500kg motorhome stuck in mud would probably need a 12000lb (4,500kg) dead pull just to get rolling

any winch which connects using crocodile clips aint worth bothering with.

I had a 3000lb winch on my suzuki jeep (998kg kerb weight) and that made light work but only using a snatch block (half the speed, twice the capacity) and was connected directly to the battery by starter motor cables and a proper winch relay.
 

scally

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complete waste of time....this one has a 3000lb dead pull capacity and that is a little under 1.5ton

A 3500kg motorhome stuck in mud would probably need a 12000lb (4,500kg) dead pull just to get rolling

any winch which connects using crocodile clips aint worth bothering with.

I had a 3000lb winch on my suzuki jeep (998kg kerb weight) and that made light work but only using a snatch block (half the speed, twice the capacity) and was connected directly to the battery by starter motor cables and a proper winch relay.

I disagree, I carry one of these and it is only meant to be used to ASSIST your driving out of trouble. I have modified the wiring to an ex forklift plug set up on the front bumper direct onto the l/b's via an isolation switch. works well on 3.5 ton used this way. Obviously with care.:thumb::thumb:
 

Landy lover

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complete waste of time....this one has a 3000lb dead pull capacity and that is a little under 1.5ton

A 3500kg motorhome stuck in mud would probably need a 12000lb (4,500kg) dead pull just to get rolling

any winch which connects using crocodile clips aint worth bothering with.

I had a 3000lb winch on my suzuki jeep (998kg kerb weight) and that made light work but only using a snatch block (half the speed, twice the capacity) and was connected directly to the battery by starter motor cables and a proper winch relay.

Got to totally disagree with you there John - Although I have a hefty one on the front of the Landy I do have one of these and have regularly used it to pull dead Landys and Range Rovers onto a flat bed trailer- used with a pulley it is a slow old job but is does it quite well. Like all things it is the gearing that gives it the power these are very low geared therefore draw low power which I estimate at 20amps . When getting a vehicle off grass - unless the driver has buried it you will only be talking about a rolling load which is much less than a dead weight - if he has buried it then he will need a tractor.

As you know I have been called on a few times to assist at rallies with the Landy - that can and has quite happily winched out of the mud 18 tonne RV's that have been half buried.

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aba

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The 'Winch-it' portable 12v winch mentioned above is an excellent bit of kit. Only weighs 12kgs, hooks over the towbar or to a towing eye etc. Usually when we've got stuck 2 or 3 'passers-by' giving a push have been enough to overcome the inertia - in the absence of 'passers-by/onlookers' the winch does the job.[HI] A 3ft iron bar with a small T-head,[/HI] hammered in the ground at an acute angle takes the place of the tree which isn't there when needed... :thumb:

It was useful to raise the masts on our boats as well...

i wouldn't want to be anywhere near that if something went wrong under load
 

pappajohn

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Got to totally disagree with you there John - Although I have a hefty one on the front of the Landy I do have one of these and have regularly used it to pull dead Landys and Range Rovers onto a flat bed trailer- used with a pulley it is a slow old job but is does it quite well. Like all things it is the gearing that gives it the power these are very low geared therefore draw low power which I estimate at 20amps . When getting a vehicle off grass - unless the driver has buried it you will only be talking about a rolling load which is much less than a dead weight - if he has buried it then he will need a tractor.

As you know I have been called on a few times to assist at rallies with the Landy - that can and has quite happily winched out of the mud 18 tonne RV's that have been half buried.
I was referring to 'buried'....a decent tow rope and tug would pull most off muddy grass if the tug was on hard ground.
my 480cc V twin hydraulic drive lawn tractor is capable of pulling a range rover from standstill on level ground.

my little 3000lb Sealy superwinch stalled out trying to pull my 1ton jeep from this mudhole and needed the addition of a snatch block.
 

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aba

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I was referring to 'buried'....a decent tow rope and tug would pull most off muddy grass if the tug was on hard ground.
my 480cc V twin hydraulic drive lawn tractor is capable of pulling a range rover from standstill on level ground.

my little 3000lb Sealy superwinch stalled out trying to pull my 1ton jeep from this mudhole and needed the addition of a snatch block.

i dont really grasp this off roading thing but why did you drive into that hole in the first place???

i say i dont get this off roading thing but at least its better having a 4x4 and getting bogged every now and again than 80% of 4x4 owners that the biggest bit of off roading it does is mounting the kerb when picking the brats up from school.

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stcyr

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i wouldn't want to be anywhere near that if something went wrong under load


Well buried it won't budge, hammered in at an angle same as a tent peg - and everything's happening in slow motion anyway. Depending on the ground it's occasionally hard to pull out again when finished with, but obviously you pull it straight out the way it was knocked in. A danforth anchor works well too. Obviously we don't try to pull a bogged down vehicle out with the winch/bar/anchor but it's got us off a friend's orchard a couple of times after being parked up for a month or so, where by attempting to drive up the slope to the exit we would have dug in straight away. So, by using the winch assistance we avoid getting stuck in the first place. Used it on the car too, specifically to avoid churning up mate's grass - Rolling, the MH would drive up, no probs., so would the car - it's starting off on the slope that causes problems, overcoming initial inertia.

The principle is the same as those picture hanging thingumajigs with the angled pin, which can hold silly weights in flimsy plaster. ....
 

reader

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Mate of mine does off roading with Landy's but no interest in motorhomes but agrees with advice given in Landy lovers 1st post 100%

(his only experience with mh's is our Windsor which isnt that big and has rwd)
 

stcyr

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... the only vehicle we've had which wouldn't start off on wet grass on the flat was a rear-wheel drive lwb transit van - totally useless.

The only one which never got stuck anywhere was our old Merc 608...

:RollEyes:

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darklord

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I use winches for fun (landrover owner) and work (heavy recovery operator) and have done for twenty years. I have used winches from 1800 kgs, to 30 tons (the current vehcile i use at work has two thirty ton winches).

I have also tought winch operatins,fitted numerous winches and the assorted electrical systems to allow them to work properly, ie split charge systems, (120 amp) seperate battery banks, solenoids etc, and my advice is......do not fit a winch to a motorhome.
Some of the reasons have already been touched on, but the main one is, the type of vehicle a winch is normally fitted to, has a chassis, or is seriously braced to accept loads of up to 9 TON (4.5 ton winch being used with a snatchblock......if that goes over your head,then i am right).

Winches weigh a fair bit, and even some landrovers uprate the suspension to compensate, a winch in untrained hands, will destroy a motorhome very quickly, and i would assume it will not be insured.

Personally, i would not take my motorhome anywhere that could possibly need the use of a winch................and it is a shame, that a total retard has impressed you so much with his totally unnacceptable inad dangerous use of this bit if equipment.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYblbEGYw4g"]Albert road recovery doing what they do best! - YouTube[/ame]
 
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Jim

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Personally, i would not take my motorhome anywhere that could possibly need the use of a winch................and it is a shame, that a total retard has impressed you so much with his totally unnacceptable inad dangerous use of this bit if equipment.

I've seen motorhome owners safely use light winches to good effect. Not a retard among them
 

rainbow chasers

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I think what Darklord is trying to get across is not to use a winch unless you really know what you are doing - or take proper advice and training on such. Winches really are lethal in the wrong hands - and probably the most underestimated when it comes to use.

A trained person knows what the minimum standards are, knows what size cable should be used and knows the physics involved and weight conversions and forces. They know the cable size fitted to these is half of what is the minimum requirement for a car - so they would not risk something three or four times the weight of a car. They know what the effects of damage to a cable look like, and how a snapping cable can decapitate without warning - and even cut through the cab of a lorry like a cheese wire.

You do not blame those that do not know these things, but plead with them to learn! Nor do you blame them for using them in the manner they do - as they do not know - but a trained eye can see thae dangers involved. An untrained person is oblivious, and thinks it is all fine! Do what the OP has done and ask advice.

If you WANT to use or fit a winch - you will need to do the following;

Most french based motorhomes have a non-load bearing front crossmember, bolted on and it is NOT structural. This will need to be reinforced and welded on, along with suitable enforcment plates to the main chassis, and a suitable winch mount chassis.

NEVER attach to a towing eye - they are only designed to take a rolling load on a level metalled surface. They are well know for snapping and stripping their threads - which is why recovery drivers use cables or chains and attached to your bottom arms.

Stay Safe!:thumb:

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stcyr

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I think what Darklord is trying to get across is not to use a winch unless you really know what you are doing - or take proper advice and training on such. Winches really are lethal in the wrong hands - and probably the most underestimated when it comes to use.

A trained person knows what the minimum standards are, knows what size cable should be used and knows the physics involved and weight conversions and forces. They know the cable size fitted to these is half of what is the minimum requirement for a car - so they would not risk something three or four times the weight of a car. They know what the effects of damage to a cable look like, and how a snapping cable can decapitate without warning - and even cut through the cab of a lorry like a cheese wire.

You do not blame those that do not know these things, but plead with them to learn! Nor do you blame them for using them in the manner they do - as they do not know - but a trained eye can see thae dangers involved. An untrained person is oblivious, and thinks it is all fine! Do what the OP has done and ask advice.

If you WANT to use or fit a winch - you will need to do the following;

Most french based motorhomes have a non-load bearing front crossmember, bolted on and it is NOT structural. This will need to be reinforced and welded on, along with suitable enforcment plates to the main chassis, and a suitable winch mount chassis.

NEVER attach to a towing eye - they are only designed to take a rolling load on a level metalled surface. They are well know for snapping and stripping their threads - which is why recovery drivers use cables or chains and attached to your bottom arms.

Stay Safe!:thumb:

The last paragraph: exactly! I said previously that we'd never try to extract the MH from a dug-in situation, with a portable winch, and would equally not intentionally take our MH into a situation where she is likely to get bogged down. For personal reasons, last winter we had to park at the lower end of a friend's orchard/small field/garden which slopes gently away from the entrance. Normally no problem at all driving out but we had to move away unexpectedly a lot sooner than planned, during a very wet & windy period. From a standstill we needed either a bit of a push or a tug, just to get rolling and not churn up the grass. Could have driven out no problem if it hadn't been someone's garden. So, in the absence of a couple of bods to push, and not wanting to damage the turf with the tractor, we used the winch. So, it amounted to 'a rolling load on a level surface' which it did effortlessly.
And on the old Globetrotter the towing eyes at the front are massive half-inch steel bar,on the chassis, not the flimsy things we've had on other vehicles. I have not been involved in recovery but have used various types of winches in other situations for years, and have enough common sense to realise the limitations of any equipment I'm ever likely to use and certainly would not expect the little portable winch to pull the MH out of axle-deep mud etc.
All the foregoing advice is excellent and sound but I hope the retard comment was not directed at me..........
 

darklord

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To wrap a winch cable around a tree then attach the hook back on the cable, involves the use of a retard, it damages the tree, damages the cable, and is unsafe. If you dissagree with that, tough! I did state that the poster seemed to be impressed with the use of the winch, and my comment was quite clearly directed at the use stated. If you went to work tommorrow and were asked to use a winch, quite a bit of training would be required, the same as for using chainsaws etc, just because you can walk into a shop and buy one, does not mean that they are safe to use. My comment was based on more experience than you could shake a stick at and was made in the hope that sensible mh owners would,nt just see a winch as something else to throw their hard earned at,..I stick by my comment.

Here is a good place to START learing about winching
 
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Jim

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I think what Darklord is trying to get across is

:thumb:

I'm guessing, but from the tone of his last paragraph,...Maybe anyone other than a "professional" like him that uses one is a retard? ::bigsmile:

Its not rocket science all we're talking about a bit of assistance off of wet grass.:Doh: they do that very well. I've seen it lots of times, I've done it.

Of course you have to be careful, goes without saying, but there is just as much danger with a regular tow, and that 'its dangerous' argument can be used about every aspect of owning and operating a motorhome.

If I spent as much time wilding as we used to, then I might consider fitting one.. might even find situations where i wished I had, but i doubt I would actually do so.

But..On your own, a slightly sloping pitch, some unexpected rain, a front wheel drive vehicle where it seems you can get a fag paper between the tyre and the ground and your in bother. A winch is a tool that can help. Yes there is the payload to think about. A winch weighs about the same as a 4m awning or a roof full of solar panels, both of which can justify themselves better than a winch. Which in my experience you will find you probably use more to help others than yourself::bigsmile:

If you get it wrong, Its rare that you can't find someone to give you a tow, so I doubt I would buy and fit one, but I wouldn't dream of name-calling someone who chooses to use one.

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rainbow chasers

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The last paragraph: exactly! I said previously that we'd never try to extract the MH from a dug-in situation, with a portable winch, and would equally not intentionally take our MH into a situation where she is likely to get bogged down. For personal reasons, last winter we had to park at the lower end of a friend's orchard/small field/garden which slopes gently away from the entrance. Normally no problem at all driving out but we had to move away unexpectedly a lot sooner than planned, during a very wet & windy period. From a standstill we needed either a bit of a push or a tug, just to get rolling and not churn up the grass. Could have driven out no problem if it hadn't been someone's garden. So, in the absence of a couple of bods to push, and not wanting to damage the turf with the tractor, we used the winch. So, it amounted to 'a rolling load on a level surface' which it did effortlessly.
And on the old Globetrotter the towing eyes at the front are massive half-inch steel bar,on the chassis, not the flimsy things we've had on other vehicles. I have not been involved in recovery but have used various types of winches in other situations for years, and have enough common sense to realise the limitations of any equipment I'm ever likely to use and certainly would not expect the little portable winch to pull the MH out of axle-deep mud etc.
All the foregoing advice is excellent and sound but I hope the retard comment was not directed at me..........

Wasn't me! I never called anyone a retard!:thumb:

I don't blame anyone for not knowing - just beg them to find out.

If you take the slope you speak of being 'gentle' and the surface being grass, then you are looking at 20% of your vehicles weight being added to cover resistence. It is situations such as this that people do not realise as they see it as a gentle slope. If you consider your vehicle being lets say 4000kg what would you consider the weight to be on a gentle slope....not many would guess it as being 4800kg - almost a ton heavier!

If anyone is interested, I can dig out a manual I have somewhere and e-mail them a copy. Rather they are knowledgable than not.
 

stcyr

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I agree entirely with your comments about equipment in the wrong hands, damage to trees, chainsaws etc. etc.

What I will not accept is being called a retard by anybody...

 

darklord

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The name calling, was at someone who uses one unsafely, not just at someone who uses one. MOST of the people that i associate with in my hobby, have winches fitted, and use them regularly. The majority of them have had some training, youtube is full of vids of those that dont.
Using one to gently drag a mh up a little biddy slope.....is dangerous,..because it gives the user false confidence and may lead them to up the ante the next time. I find the retiscence to take advice from someone more experienced a little arrogant, but overcoming ignorance is the first hurdle to education.
If anyone does decide to buy a winch, on a suitable day/time, I will happily give a days instruction free gratis, it MAY save you injuring yourself, it MAY save you damaging your MH, it WILL save you from wasting money on a winch you may not need.
The main advice i give landrover owners when they ask what winch to fit,..is not to fit one. We are advised never to travel alone, and not to damage the enviroment, so spending £1000....when a mate could pull you out,...is a nice option.

OH, and just in case anyone else has selective reading disorder, the RETARD, was the person who put the cable around the tree then back on itself.

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stcyr

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Good grief ... the slope is virtually imperceptible but enough to stop a take-off from standstill without mucking up the grass and possibly digging in. Just a push from a couple of people would be enough to overcome the inertia. That is light useage. It is assistance, not lifting 3t up a cliff. In the past we've used rope with steel pulleys to move things like boats, tree-trunks, vehicles and so on, using nothing more than manual power... 1 person with pulley assistance is the same as 3 or 4 people pulling/pushing...
 

stcyr

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Ah, all comes clear. Agreed, putting the cable round the tree and hooking onto the cable is daft and this sort of instance is where advice based on experience and training is priceless.

Personally if I ever use anything it will be well within it's capacity. I can see dangers where many others can't, and over the years have seen 'accidents' about to happen and have been able to step in and stop them happening - like a neighbour a few weeks back holding his chainsaw with one hand, the large plank of wood in the other, and leaning directly over it ... :whatthe:
Being excessively cautious in everything I do and never having had any 'accident' through equipment failure or misuse in 66 years, despite having been in pretty varied situations at times, I may have overreacted to what appeared to be directed at me - which turns out not to be the case - so I apologise!!

:thumb:
 

darklord

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No need for an apology mate. I will accept that i may get a little passonate about this at times, but YOU will know, others may need advising, that a 1kg snatchblock sailing toward the back of a 20 yr old landrover at 60mph because the cable snapped...is likely to do £20 worth of damage. If however, it hit the back of a motorhome, and the insurers DID,NT wriggle out of it, It may cause a write off.
I have seen cables snap...one a 22mm cable on a heavy wrecker! Ive seen tow points, hooks, parts of crossmembers, spring hangers...and.....winch mountings, all break under the strain of winch use, and it is scary.
But hey ho, some people can,t be told and its their money and their motorhome,......just means that I,ll avoid them like the bleddy plague if i see them:ROFLMAO:

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