Ducato 2.8 2006 Fuel Filter Leaking Problem (1 Viewer)

Jul 4, 2010
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I have Fiat Ducato 2006 2.8 JTD Maxi, it's the facelift model following the vans up to and including 2005 but befor ehte current-ish 2007 onwards models.

Bought Fiat fuel filter, went to change it and they have given me the earlier one in the metal silver canister, the spin on one. Being Sunday can't do much about it.

My model has an all plastic housing with a small cartridge inside. I noticed the housing looked a little damp but couldn't find any real trace of leakage. On removing the old filter noticed that the sealing ring between top and bottom section had stretched and a fair bit larger than the seat it sat on ( to my shame have not changed the filter before, I have left it the maximum 40,000 miles so it's ok that it has grown over that mileage).

Got a pattern fuel filter from Halfords this afternoon and after cleaning the housing fitted it. The new sealing ring was satisfyingly a snug fit on the lip it sits on. Turned on ignition to run the fuel pump and a gusher of diesel from the filter housing where the top plate and filter container meet (at the sealing joint). They are joined by a plastic ring/collar that is threaded and screws onto the thread on the lower housing.
Tried to tighten the threaded ring and it barely moved, but this sometimes happends of coarse plastic surfaces, they bite into each other and grip.

Tried it again and the same leak.

Long story short. Took everything apart and checked that the parts went together nicely. Checked without the sealing ring to ensure the 2 filter housing mating faces would compress the quite hard sealing ring and it could compress the ring about 50% before it met a stop.

Re-assambled very carefully and this time a good leak but not gushing, I managed to get the threaded ring a little tighter.

Took apart again and lubricated the two faces of the large coarse thread, this time only a small leak, a little tighter and just a tiny welling over several minutes of the pump running, switching on and running again etc.

My guess is a design fault within the plastice housings that make up the filter assembly and that this is a difficult fuel filter to seal, anyone come across this before?

We are making a 2 day delivery starting early tomorrow so Rosie goes on the phone to move it all on a day, hey ho.


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beachcaster

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my 2009 fuel filter went a while ago..........a plastic construction with a plastic lid.

Luckily we were on site and the AA tried a fix.....but ended up getting a new one and fitting it for us ( new cost over £200)

All the experts said it was probably not fitted properly after a new filter was inserted at a previous service.

It turns out you need a special tools ( including a cradle ) to hold the base so that the lid can be torqued to exactly the right level.

Some dealers do not have these tools and over/under tightening the lid can cause distortion or hairline cracks or distortion of the inner "O" ring.

Why on earth this part could not me made of metal........I dont know...as far as Im concerned its a design fault.

A bodged repacement will just lead to it failing again.

barry
 

Chris

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Mine went in Spain on a 2008 2.3 model.

This was apparently due to a non Fiat part being fitted on a service.

Can't help further though cos I don't do engines::bigsmile:

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OP
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Jul 4, 2010
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my 2009 fuel filter went a while ago..........a plastic construction with a plastic lid.

Luckily we were on site and the AA tried a fix.....but ended up getting a new one and fitting it for us ( new cost over £200)

All the experts said it was probably not fitted properly after a new filter was inserted at a previous service.

It turns out you need a special tools ( including a cradle ) to hold the base so that the lid can be torqued to exactly the right level.

Some dealers do not have these tools and over/under tightening the lid can cause distortion or hairline cracks or distortion of the inner "O" ring.

Why on earth this part could not me made of metal........I dont know...as far as Im concerned its a design fault.

A bodged repacement will just lead to it failing again.

barry


Hello Barry, thanks for the input.

I was a mechanic for 20 years including building special engines for 10, but that was a while ago.

I still retain some of my knowledge and understand about over and under tightening etc.

Last night spoke with a mate who has a MoT and repair workshop, he said over the years they have had to replace a couple of filter assemblies after not being able to seal them, but as he employs mechanics couldn't tell me the detail.

I'm about to phone around a few other contacts from way back to try to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks
 

jhorsf

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This type of tool was made to do the job is this any help?
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Geo

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Its quite simple

DIY failure = design fault:thumb:

Trade failure= cowboy bodge artist:ROFLMAO::RollEyes:

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OP
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Jul 4, 2010
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OK, the filter housing doesn't leak anymore, and have learnt a bit about modern filters today.

Exactly as jhorsf has shown, there is a tool and a sequence for this style of fuel filter. I did see a catalogue this afternoon showing tens of tools for different filter applications, no make that maybe more than a hundred.

I was told there are known problems with plastic filter housings including over tightening and distortion due to age, plus sometime not the most robust components that can be easily damaged.

I was also told that due to the nature of the coarse thread on this type of filter housing that my idea of tight was not tight enough, this was universally told to me.

Two workshops said that they don't have all the tools so do what is forbidden, use large water pump pliers as shown with a big red X over them in the diagrams above.

I instantly thought that it would be easy to crack the threaded ring by using grips, but was also told these modern plastics are tougher than in the past.

So took a large pair of grips and tightened the leaking filter housing. It went click once and turned a little more than I could do by hand. Turned it again and another click (this is the breaking away from each other of the 2 thread sections that bite into each other under pressure), this is not the ring cracking. Tightened for the 3rd time and a 3rd click.

At that point I thought I had chanced my arm and tested the filter housing, no leak. I primed the fuel system about 15 separate times, no leak. Ran the engine for a while, no leak.

I did the above having experience of what can break a component and when to stop, I also got lucky. I spoke with 6 separate mechanics I have know for many years and acted on their advice.

Last. I bought another two fuel filters today, different makes to the Halfords one (that is still fitted).
The FRAM one looked identical to the Halfords one just half the price though. Even the sealing ring, was slightly mis-shapen as the Halfords one is.
The second is either OE or a close copy, it is by Blue Print. The filter itself looks different, but the same as the original one removed (OE?). The biggest difference is the sealing ring. Much more accurate in dimensions, but about 50% softer than the Halfords/FRAM one, so much more compression and give. It also has a coating on it which may make it seal better?

My view is the design of this filter housing is very poor but I have to live with it. Moving away from a simple canister must have cost implications as a canister filter as small the the cartridge fitted into this housing would probably weigh less thatn the plastic assembly, so not using plastic due to weight.

I tried at the beginning to get an original fuel filter but the FIAT dealer gave me on presenting them with a chassis number the wrong one. If I had had the original filter then maybe I wouldn't have started this thread? Good job too I hear you say.

Thanks very very much to all.
 
OP
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Jul 4, 2010
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Its quite simple

DIY failure = design fault:thumb:

Trade failure= cowboy bodge artist:ROFLMAO::RollEyes:


Not quite a DIYer Geo, sorry. I did in my murky past work on engine component development, the hands on version, that was after maybe 20 years mechanic. So in my and many of my (trade professionals) mates opinion, design fault from which ever way you look at it.
Trouble is, I now have a very poor memory so I ask people questions about things I ought to know.

Still, out of the motor trade for 15 years and don't ever wish to go back to it, although like the odd play with vehicles from time to time.
 

jhorsf

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I can say Blue Print is usually a good replacement for any parts and made to a good specification well worth paying a little more sometimes if you can get them

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beachcaster

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This is only a DIY job if you have the special tools.
Most people and quite a few service shops dont have the special tools.

To tighten up with a large wrench can get you out of trouble......but as this is a filter housing that should have its filter changed several times in its life it does look like a shoddy engineering solution to me.

I would not let my local fiat shop undertake this filter change without showing me thay had the right special tools....and if they chance it and tighten with a wrench it could fail at any time.......just like my one did.

If you are halfway through france on a motorway...you really dont want a fuel pouring out from underneath your engine because someone didnt use the special tools to tighten up to the correct torque setting and tightened it with a wrench and hoped it would be ok.

Its a serious issue and a bad design solution.

barry:Smile:
 
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OP
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The interesting thing about the Blue Print fuel filter design is there is a warning on the box not to physically touch the filter by hand, rather use the container it comes in to seat it on to the housing... not sure why though?
 
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Leaking Ducato Fuel Filter

This is only a DIY job if you have the special tools.
Most people and quite a few service shops dont have the special tools.

To tighten up with a large wrench can get you out of trouble......but as this is a filter housing that should have its filter changed several times in its life it does look like a shoddy engineering solution to me.

I would not let my local fiat shop undertake this filter change without showing me thay had the right special tools....and if they chance it and tighten with a wrench it could fail at any time.......just like my one did.

If you are halfway through france on a motorway...you really dont want a fuel pouring out from underneath your engine because someone didnt use the special tools to tighten up to the correct torque setting and tightened it with a wrench and hoped it would be ok.

Its a serious issue and a bad design solution.

barry:Smile:

This has happened to me twice now. The first failure was about 3,000 miles after a service in a Fiat garage and happened in Skye. It took 2 days to get a replacement part. That was fitted and there was no problem again for about 3,000 miles, then at the weekend when I turned the engine over, it started again. I brought the filter housing to a Fiat dealership and found out they don't have the tool for tightening the housing.

The cost of the blueprint tool for fixing this is £33, so I have ordered one and feel that this is a small price to pay to avoid this happening in the middle of France or Spain. I think in future I will carry the tool and a spare filter so I can do a road side repair if necessary.

Not sure why the repairs fail after 3-4,000 miles. Assume that the thread is loosening due to vibration. Anybody have any ideas?

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DuxDeluxe

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I've had this problem twice.

Both after servicing and fitting by Fiat "Professional" service.............. and subsequently rescued by RAC


Just ordered one of these for when it goes again and my future son in law can do it (his garage now does the van servicing but he admitted that they didn't have one of these so left the filter well alone for a month or two)
 

Techno

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The next eBay seller is double that price and I bought one last year :Doh:

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Geo

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Not quite a DIYer Geo, sorry. I did in my murky past work on engine component development, the hands on version, that was after maybe 20 years mechanic. So in my and many of my (trade professionals) mates opinion, design fault from which ever way you look at it.
Trouble is, I now have a very poor memory so I ask people questions about things I ought to know.

Still, out of the motor trade for 15 years and don't ever wish to go back to it, although like the odd play with vehicles from time to time.

You missed my point
I was hinting that when a diyer has problems with these filters it's always put down to a bad design fault

When a punter pays a garage to change these filters and they fail sometimes 1000s of miles later,the blame lies firmly on the crap service done by the garage:Doh:
Even fiat cant fit em right and the original filters are no better, its pot luck every time, no mater who changed it:thumb:
 

injebreck99

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I have had this problem twice, a year apart, the original filter leaked badly a few months after I bought the van, (2.3, 130bhp, ), then again last year after fitting a genuine Fiat filter, , everything lined up and tightened correctly, I think that the ring is not deep or thick enough, so does not compress enough to give a proper seal, that and a crappy plastic housing/securing ring, what could possibly go wrong, !

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Techno

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I believe the reality is that there is nothing wrong with the original filter housing but that it is abuse by mechanics not using the correct tool and a torque wrench. This is evident from many posts on different forums. As for the seal stretching, this will happen in the process of removing the filter housing top as the seal will have stuck to the surfaces and will not come free evenly but as it is meant to be replaced it is not relevant.
All the filter housing manufacturer has done is make the replacement housing grease monkey proof.
 

Geo

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I believe the reality is that there is nothing wrong with the original filter housing but that it is abuse by mechanics not using the correct tool and a torque wrench. This is evident from many posts on different forums. As for the seal stretching, this will happen in the process of removing the filter housing top as the seal will have stuck to the surfaces and will not come free evenly but as it is meant to be replaced it is not relevant.
All the filter housing manufacturer has done is make the replacement housing grease monkey proof.

Hi
I have waited for years for a sparky with your mechanical foursight to come along,
"Assuming you have installed a light up there" could you read out the correct procedure and most importantly the torque setting for the filter housing, I see im wasting hundreds of pounds a year on tech data software and they dont even show such info so any help you can offer will be of great help to my and many other Grease Monkeys
Regards
G
 

Techno

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I'm not having a go at mechanics who do the job with the correct tools but it is evident that even a Fiat garage admitted they did not have the tool :Sad:
The tightening torque is 30nm as outlined in the link to the bulletin for the tool and procedure further back in the thread.


EDIT for link http://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/ADK85502.pdf

filter%20a-L.png

filter%20b-L.png

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Techno

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Anyone in need of a quick fix or simply want to carry a spare. Complete original units on ebay (pre reinforced model)
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NOTE NOT listed as suitable for 2.8 as TOPIC TITLE but OK for mine

EDIT a closer look at the filter housing photo reveals a date of July 2013
 
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jhorsf

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Geo I posted a link in post number 5 to tell you how to do the job with the right tool as my fellow sparkie friend Techno quite rightly said some of us have a light installed upstairs:ROFLMAO:
 
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Techno

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I'm working in reverse here but for now PART II
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steviebouy

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OK chaps, further to this saga I offer the following. Moho was serviced in the middle of 2014 by a local, reputable dealer. The filter fuel filter issue was known to me after a friends Chausson dumped a load of diesel in the middle of the paddock at Brands Hatch. Embarrassing or what! Some research on here (thanks Techno100 et al) gave me all the info I needed so I questioned the mechanic at said dealers. "No, we don't have the filter fixture but we have never had a failure." Well that didn't fill me with confidence so I followed the forum advice to buy a spare from eBay and stow it with my other spares and tools.
Now after travelling approx. 5K miles with no leaks I found that the water separator light was showing on the dash so I proceeded to drain the filter using the provided drain. This did not extinguish the light after trying numerous times so I purchased a new filter (FRAM C10026A) and the Blue Print tool in order to strip and clean the filter assembly. After doing so I had some surprises. The first surprise was to find that my filter element was UFI brand with a date mark of Jan 2008. The second surprise was that the water sensor light was still illuminated. The third surprise was that after cleaning, reassembling and refitting the filter I only covered about 20 miles before detecting a diesel leak! Out with the spare filter (and the vinyl gloves) and fit the spare unit on the side of the road. Took most time retrieving it from the bowels of the garage but fitted easily in five minutes!
Lessons learned? My dealer uses a time machine in order to buy period filters which fit exactly as they did when the van was new!
No matter how good with the tools you are (30 years aero engine fitter, classic car restorer and race engine builder using a Snap On digital torque wrench) it's still gonna leak! Oh and the warning light went out on fitting the new unit showing the sensor to be duff.
Since this new filter (presumably, I haven't checked) has about 25K miles before it needs to be touched, I may have another attempt on the old filter using a "premium" brand filter and carry that as a spare. Is there a difference in the standard of the rubber seal, has anyone lubricated or used sealer on this? I don't imagine lubrication is necessary as there is no "sliding" involved but may help the seal "spread" into place and sealer shouldn't be required on a joint of this type.

Maybe my dealer can supply original equipment filters?

Thanks to everyone who takes the time and trouble to share their knowledge and experiences
Cheers, Steve
 

Techno

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Not clear what you're saying but it reads like the dealer never actually touched it but charged for it?

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steviebouy

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You've taken the trouble to read that lot!!??!!

Basically, they never touched it so it didn't leak until I fiddled with it.
Also tool or no tool, torque wrench or no, it may still leak.
My mate did his up by having it on the floor with somebody standing on it and using a huge set of grips on the lid. He did replace the filter in order to get a new seal. It hasn't leaked since!
Steve
 
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Techno

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Also tool or no tool, torque wrench or no, it may still leak.
Thanks for your input. I've yet to experience this. No wonder the dealer never has leaks :LOL::mad:

You'll know from my guide that I only serviced mine because it had never leaked despite having a service record of it being done by dealers. In other words I doubted that it had been done.
 
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